Genevieve  0:07  

Welcome to I Could Never, a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from chill polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I’m joined today by my co host and partner, ishik. 

Ishik  0:19  

Indeed. My name is ishik. I am also joined here to join you

Genevieve  0:24  

Why do you sound like a robot?

Ishik  0:26  

I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, my program doesn't allow me to think that way. 

Genevieve 0:30

You're in a mood. 

Ishik 0:31

I am. I'm rolling with it. I think that my mood is going to be lifted, because our guest today is Zachary Zane. For anyone who doesn't know Zachary, he is a sex and relationship columnist for outlets like Men's Health and cosmopolitan. His work has appeared in many publications from the New York Times to Playboy, and he is the author of the book Boyslut. Welcome.

Zachary Zane  0:51  

Welcome. I don't know why I said welcome. Thank you for having me excited to be here. 

Ishik  0:57  

We are excited as well, but before we can explore that excitement anymore. We have to, you know, try to lift up an old friend of the pod. He's struggling to get out of bed today. Little bit of bed head, but he's here. It's vibe or vent time. 

Genevieve  1:10  

It's vibe or vent time. Okay, for anyone who is new here, we always like to start the show off with a little icebreaker called Viber vent, where we each take a beat to share about something that's either really making us happy recently or something that sucks that we need to get off our chest. So if you boys don't mind, I'll go first please. I'm vibing today for two reasons. We got a couple of fun things coming up. One, there is this little town that we're going to in on Friday, in a couple of days, called sprivald lubinal, which is basically this tiny town focused on pickles. Stay with me. It's very cute, and you can ride a canoe around the town, and you can go to all of these little pickle shops, and yeah, it's basically like, for generations people have been pickling things, and it's special family recipes and stuff. So we're gonna go check that out and get a little bit of German pickling culture. And then the next day, we're going to Chili Fest. Chili Fest, yeah, and see what it is that Germans think is spicy. So I don't know. They're wrong. Yeah, it's we grade them on a curve. But I'm really excited about that, just to do some like, fun, outdoorsy, like cultural things this summer. It makes me smile so but I'd love to hear for you, Zachary, do you want Zachary or Zach?

Zachary Zane  2:31  

Zach is fine.

Genevieve  2:33  

Okay, yeah. I would love to know what's on your mind. Are you vibing? Are you venting today?

Zachary Zane  2:37  

Uh, I think I'm vibing. Uh, which is nice. I kind of, for the past month, have been dragging my feet a little, starting my next book. And I finally, this past week, just like, I've been like outlining this chapter for like, way too long, like the outline was there. It was set. I just needed to actually write this. I thought about it plenty. I don't need to keep thinking about it. And I finally got, like, 2000 words I wrote yesterday and I started up today, and I just feel like, good. Like, it's so hard to sometimes just get these projects started, and then once you do it can start flowing. So I'm just kind of happy with myself and vibing that, like, okay, yes, we can do this breathe, and finally, actually getting started. So I'm just really happy about that.

Genevieve  3:21  

Is it too soon to share what the book's about? 

Zachary Zane  3:25  

Um, sure. I mean, no, not yet. It's, it's gonna be a collection of essays, which is kind of my bread and butter. And I think this one, you know, my first book, was definitely like, I was like, the sex expert for that. And I'm talking a lot about polyamory, a lot about bisexuality and kinks, and I really do have sex down. I feel like that's something I feel comfortable with, whereas intimacy and connection is something I don't have down. In the same way, it's something I struggle with more. I think it's something that many of us, you know, struggle with as well. So it's kind of now, it's looking at this journey of cultivating intimacy with my new partner and just beyond that as well. But I think she was kind of the catalyst in a way of, yeah, I thought I was, like, not avoidant. I thought I was emotionally intimate. And then with kind of some of these struggles that I've had with her, and these things that I quote, unquote, thought I'd move past, or was over, or I'd already worked through, things like jealousy, for example, are starting to arise. And so it's kind of been a nice switch, instead of, like, my content, which is often, like, very raunchy, to be like, Okay, let's look at the love side of this, the intimacy side of this. And it's definitely like, I'm not the expert on this. You know, I'm writing and I'm sharing my story, hopefully, or hopefully it doesn't resonate with you or whatever it is, but hopefully you can kind of learn something about yourself from this, and maybe this and maybe be a little bit easier on yourself as it's something I think many of us struggle with. I love that. Awesome. Yeah.

Ishik  4:47  

Well, okay, now I feel like I'm obligated to vibe as well.

Genevieve  4:51  

Baby you can balance us out.

Ishik  4:53  

I've already decided. I think I'm going with, what a new term that I've come up with just now. It's going to be a vibent. Yes. Okay, so I'm vibing, but it's, like, a little bit of an odd one. I am vibing because I am kind of in a shitty mood today, right? And, like, I've just been in a shitty mood, like, all day since, like, maybe I was projecting onto Viber vent that it was the one who rolled out of bed, wrong? It was me. Okay, it was me all along. Uh, yeah, I've just been in a crappy mood, and there wasn't anything wrong. And, like, I think that I, what I'm vibing about is the, like, the beautiful reality that, like, you can just be not okay, right? You can just feel a little off, right? And that doesn't mean that the world is falling down around me. There's no major problem. There's something about accepting that. So it's yeah, there's something I for whatever reason I feel good about it, so I'm vibing about that.

Genevieve  5:47  

Yeah, you're accepting just where you're at. Yeah, can be nice, even if where you're at is not where you want to stay exactly.

Ishik  5:53  

I think it's that self acceptance, which is what is the like, positive element of it for me, yeah,

Genevieve  5:59  

I got you baby, and maybe our conversation will turn things around. 

Ishik  6:03  

I'm already feeling a little bit optimistic. I'm already just like hearing the two of you talk about things that you're excited about makes me feel good. So, you know, so.

Genevieve  6:12  

But yes, we like to start each show, Zach getting to know about our guests non monogamy. And I know you're not polyamorous, you are non monogamous. So yeah, would you walk us through what your non monogamy looks like, how it's maybe evolved over the years?

Zachary Zane  6:28  

Sure, yeah, it's definitely evolved over the years. I think when I first became non monogamous, I was polyamorous, and this was about almost exactly a decade ago, which is kind of wild to think we've been doing this for a little bit of a while, and I lived with my boyfriend and my boyfriend's wife and my boyfriend's wife's girlfriends, the four of us lived together, and then her boyfriend, who lived like upstate, would come down too. So sometimes it was the five of us, and that was my first non monogamous relationship. Oh, my God. Oh my god, I really went balls to the walls. And I was like, 24 uh, I moved in with them after like, three or four months. I had some anxiety going into it, but I finally decided I ended up having actually this big sit down with him and his wife. And his wife was the one that actually convinced me to move in. She was like, I really haven't seen him this happy in so many years, and I think you're such a good influence on him, and it brings me so much joy. And you know, I think having her support meant kind of the world. And yeah, we dated for about a year, and then I ended up moving to New York. I was like, All right, I still need to get down here. But again, I entered polyamory, and I've kind of written about this in Cosmo and some other places, but kind of for the wrong reasons. It was a lot of this was subconscious or not exactly conscious, but I had just had a really tough relationship that ended where I was monogamous for a year. And in that relationship, we actually the idea of being non monogamous was an option. We would we were both by we actually would have these conversations every couple months, being like, hey, where do you feel on this? Do you want to be non monogamous? She made it clear that, like, if we are together long enough, we will have to absolutely be non monogamous. And I said, I'm open to that, but let's wait and see. But anyway, so we ended up not being non monogamous, and that was not the reason why we end up parting, but for other reasons, it was a challenging relationship, and then when it ended, I started, you know, sleeping with a ton of dudes because I was, like, new to my bisexuality when I started dating her, and now I want to get back on the dick, for lack of better words here, but like so and that was fun. And there were a couple guys who was dating, and I was, I thought, so clear that I said to both of them, like, Hey, I just got out of a serious, monogamous relationship, I'm not looking for one. And both guys end up asking me to, like, be their boyfriend. And I said no to both of them, being like, Hey, I made this pretty clear. And the second guy, even though we'd maybe been, like, hooking up for whatever, two, three months, like, he got really mad at me and was like, You led me on, and I liked you and fuck you and you're an asshole. And I was just like, damn it. Like, I really tried hard to be honest and upfront about this and, like, had to reassert sometimes, being like, hey, just a reminder that I'm not looking I can't do another committed relationship. I just got out of one. And I remember after that, I was like, I'm not gonna even date people. Like, casually dating is seemingly getting me into trouble, so I'm not going to do this. And I just started, like, fucking everyone, but essentially fucking them once, like from Grindr and then being like, that's it. And then when I ended up meeting who ended up becoming my boyfriend, and learning that he was polyamorous, I was so new to it, I initially was going to potentially interview him, because I was, like, just starting my writing career and writing about LGBTQ culture. And there was, at the time, like, now there's so much poly content, but at the time, there was, like, 10 years ago, there was really a dearth of it. It was before this huge influx. And I remember going over their place for like, family dinner, as they called it, and meeting, you know, the polycule thinking, Oh, these people are cool and they're nerdy. They love playing games, but like, I bet you, there's a lot of tough conversations, and in my mind, I'm like, God, this just seems so stressful. Just did not seem appealing to me. That was kind of me initially writing off polyamory, but I still like them. I liked hanging out with them. And I'm like, All right, I don't have to date them. Let's just hang out with them. Then, if I remember the fake name I used for him in the book, I think it was Connor. Connor, like, after like, hanging out with him, like, five or six times in a group, he, like, asked me on a date, and at the time I wasn't dating, but I thought, I'm like, This guy has a wife who he lives with a girlfriend, he lives with a boyfriend who I met him with, and multiple other partners. This cannot get serious. There's literally no way this man can get attached. He has so many partners that it kind of felt like safe for me, for someone who also had avoidance. The issue wasn't looking for a serious partnership. I thought, oh, I can kind of have a level of intimacy and the cutesy dates, but then I don't see him, I won't see him. And that's kind of what I was looking for. But having struggling to find of course, that's not what happened. We end up falling in love with each other. End up seeing how up seeing him five, six days a week. We moved in, but it's almost it was this like idea that I did not think it could get serious, which is why I did it.

Genevieve  11:12  

Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people do try to not fall in love, and I wish you could control that. I wish you could control that. But, yeah, it's you can't predict it. 

Zachary Zane  11:23  

Yeah. I've kind of realized for a long time now, without being aware of it again, I was purposely dating people where I could did not see long term potential. And that's not because these people were bad or anything like that. These people were sweet and smart, and we loved each other, but there were ways in which we were clearly not compatible. I kind of had somewhat used polyamory instead of really investing in one person, allowing to have intimacy or investing in multiple people. But I was just kind of like divvying it out a little bit between everyone, and not actually having this level of intimacy with multiple people, but instead not having it with anyone, I remember kind of one of the turning points for me was maybe a couple years ago, and I had two, like, primary ish partners, and probably a month before the holidays, I kind of cleared it with both of them, where I was like, hey, I want to figure out a way where we both feel good about this. And I was going to spend like, Christmas and Christmas Eve with one partner, and then like, New Year's with the other partner, and that week between Christmas and New Year's, you know, my girlfriend was just like, hey, like, I feel like you're spending more time with your boyfriend. I don't mean to dump this on you, but I'm kind of, like, upset and feeling like my needs aren't getting met. And then my boyfriend said, Hey, I just feel like you're spending more time with your girlfriend and my needs aren't getting met. Mind you, I did exactly kind of what we had agreed to, and it was tough, because a part of me wanted to, like, say, Hey, thank you for being honest with me, and I'm gonna try to do better. And the other part of me was like, fuck both of you. Like, you know, the other part of me was like, I am trying so hard to be honest, and I'm sticking to what we did. I didn't see my family or go home, which I actually usually like to do for the holidays, instead, in order to kind of do this in a way, because I didn't want to have to bring one person over the other. And it was one of those things where, again, they didn't do anything wrong, and their feelings are valid, but also my feelings are valid. You know what I mean, like? And I'm actually just angry because I feel like I'm really trying, and I felt like, oh, I can't win. I also feel responsible for other people's emotions, which is something I'm working on in therapy, because otherwise, you know, if I was better at this, I would have been like, Oh, you're feeling your feelings, and that's okay, and it wouldn't have affected me that much. Unfortunately, it does. Again, been actively working on this in therapy, so that's why it riled me up, because I felt guilted, even though that was not even their intent. So I understand, you know, the the bullshit I'm bringing to this, but I think just for me, for a while, it was a lot of work. I felt like I was breaking a lot of hearts, or I was letting people down, or whatever it was. And I'm like, this isn't I'm not enjoying this. I think that's the truth of it, and being like, I'm having these hard conversations, I'm having these breakups, and I'm just not in the place where I want to put in that work, and I want to instead, put more work into one person that I can have a more long term relationship with, and the next person I date. I really, really need to see long term potential. And I'm not going to ignore any red flags. I'm not going to ignore any beige flags or ways that were like, incompatible, like, like, I'm going to really slow things down. I feel like my 20s were almost about saying yes to everything and having new experiences and new types of relationships. And my 30s have been a lot more about saying no, yeah.

Genevieve  14:41  

Yeah. I talked to a lot of people who, for a number of reasons, don't desire to do that work. And I think knowing that like knowing what work you do and don't want to do, knowing what your own priorities are. You know, plenty of people will work several jobs, maybe they have a few kids or, you know. And they're just like, this particularly is not a priority to push myself in that area. 

Zachary Zane  15:05  

Yeah, I don't know I, like my friend made a joke where instead of being boy slut, I'm just boy tired. And it really resonated with me, where I'm like, I just need things to be a little bit simpler.

Genevieve  15:17  

Yeah. So bring us to present day. You know, you wanted to step back from polyamory. You wanted something simpler. You are still non monogamous. So what does your non monogamy look like now? 

Zachary Zane  15:29  

Now I think when I yeah, when I had this revelation, that's when I kind of had almost a switch in what I was looking for in a partner, a switch in my mindset, and that's when I met my current partner, but like, I'm now in a much more hierarchical relationship with my partner now of maybe seven, eight months, and right now, I'm in a really healthy relationship. Obviously, we're non monogamous. We still have other people that we sleep with, and kind of like past partners, in a sense, who have been somewhat grandfathered in, but where neither of us are actively looking to like, get another primary partner at the moment.

Ishik  16:07  

It sounds like, you know, before this current relationship, you had been pursuing, you know, romantic, non exclusivity. You know what? What changed there? What was that transition. Like, you know, what made you want that? What made her want that? Like, what were those conversations like? What happened?

Zachary Zane  16:27  

What happened was, you know, we just started to see each other more and more. So when it goes from whatever it is once a week till the sudden, three, four times a week, you start having more conversations. But also, like, do actually have really the time if you're dedicating, you know, three or four days a week to one person. I also have other friends I want to see. I have work events I need to do. I have nights I want to see myself. So to even, like, start something with someone else would be challenging, but I think I said to her, I was like, I never want to impede you from dating anyone you want to be with. I don't want to control your actions, and if you fall in love with someone else, I want you to feel like you can pursue that. You know it'll be challenging, and I know it would hurt a lot, but I love you, and we'll make it work. We'll figure it out. You know what I mean? So but and she kind of then shared, I kind of waited and she said that she felt the same way. So when she said she had felt the same way, I was like, Okay, then let's not for right now. Let's really try to not like, I'm not necessarily like on field, you know, trying to set up, uh, dates with new people, like, you know, the people who are poly, who are actively looking for more partners, and neither of us are, and that's kind of where we are. So I think we just kind of spoke about it and just being honest. We're also focusing on, like intimacy, which is again, new and challenging, and also the idea of actually having intimacy with two people. It's like, oh my god, I can barely do it with one person right now. How am I going to navigate this with multiple people? We're luckily feeling the same way. We're both kind of on the same journey as two people who have been somewhat avoidant and who's potentially used polyamory as a way to kind of exacerbate or enable that avoid and see, which I know is a stereotype about polyamory. Obviously, that's not all people, but that was the truth for me, right? And realizing, Oh, this was the truth for me. But yeah, I think for the first time ever, I'm like, Hey, we're really trying to not be in that situation, at least for the time being.

Genevieve  18:27  

I'm curious, you mentioned that some people are kind of getting grandfathered in to your structure at the moment, that you're still sleeping with friends and stuff. Yeah? How? How is that going? Like, did you have conversations to update them?

Zachary Zane  18:39  

Oh, yeah, for me, I had fewer grandfathered in, and I've just kind of told people, Hey, by the way, this doesn't have to necessarily change anything in our dynamic. I see you once every month, you know, like, like, nothing really needs to change, but just kind of giving them a heads up and like, Oh, awesome. Thanks for letting me know. And again, I think because nothing needed to change. And this person wasn't secretly craving more, it would only be an issue, almost, if someone was secretly craving more or hoping that our dynamic would deepen. And since I had a couple people again who that's not what they were looking for, it really didn't have to change anything. And we were happy for me. I don't want to necessarily tell my partner's story, you know what I mean, but she has, like, a partner who's currently away, like living abroad, and we're not exactly sure when that partner is going to return. And I've voiced, I'm like, that's gonna be challenging when that happens, and we don't even know if they are returning, you know what I mean, or like, what when that is. But it is a weird thing that I've kind of compartmentalized where, again, I would never tell them to break up, but like, of going from seeing my partner four or five days a week to seeing her once or twice a week, because they're balancing between the two of us, because they had kind of been dating for a long time prior to me stepping in the scene. But again, they've been gone for a year. They had no intention. Of coming back. So that is a more, I don't say like nebulous thought, but it's almost like we've kind of spoken about it, and what kind of has been the verdict has just been, yeah, if they return, we'll figure it out.

Ishik  20:13  

So you know, since deciding this, since deciding to not pursue new partners, has there ever been a time where that was like, a little harder to stick to, you know, like you met someone, and you feel like you were connecting, and you would have wanted to pursue them more and date them, but you just realized, you know, you weren't in the headspace for it, and you kind of had to tell them that you weren't available for that.

Zachary Zane  20:38  

I actually recently had to there was someone who, like, I had been kind of crushing on and I was like, I don't I actually had to pump the brakes a little bit. We had just kind of met through friends a couple times while out, and we, yeah, we connected. And she was like, oh, when are we going on a date? And I was like, Hey, I'm not necessarily opposed, but I just want to clarify. Well, first I clarified like I am non monogamous and not polyamorous. I'm not sure exactly how much I can give, and I'm almost just worried to kind of engage in this in any capacity, like because I just feel like this is somewhat playing with fire. So I think I was just very honest, and was like, Hey, would you be okay with just being friends, because I kind of, I kind of don't have the headspace to kind of do both of this right now, and I really have a good thing going for me, and I want to keep it going. And she'd been nom no for a while. She was like, yeah, sorry. I didn't know that's where you were at. And yeah, we can, we can just be friends and see each other while out. And that works for now. I don't want to get in the way. I was kind of proud of myself, because before I'd be like, oh, let's kind of revel in this gray area and see what happens. And now I'm like, I just shouldn't. I just shouldn't right now, and I think that's the truth of it. And I don't have the emotional capacity that I used to have. I used to be able to have a lot more hard conversations and navigate jealousy. And as I've gotten older, I'm just like, I just kind of want a little bit of an easier relationship. 

Ishik  22:05  

Yeah, for what it's worth, I do think that it's nice that you are so upfront about the reality of what you are and aren't able to give to these relationships. You know, I think a lot of people maybe aren't so honest with themselves about that, but being aware that it could be hurtful to this person or honestly to both of you, and then making the decision to just not invite anyone new closer if you know that there's just not room for them right now.

Genevieve  22:34  

Would you say that it's also like, Do you also feel a fluidity that Things can keep evolving in the future, or, 

Zachary Zane  22:42  

Oh, absolutely. And like we even, we actually, my partner and I were talking about this last night, knowing that we're still again. We're still kind of in our honeymoon phase, even though it's been seven, eight months, which is kind of beautiful, extended out as far as it absolutely can go, just knowing both of us, like, if we're together five years from now, I feel like the desire for us to have a more serious other primary partner is probably going to come up. You know what I mean? You know, I look back at who I was a year ago, five years ago, you can't predict it. So I think we are open to everything expanding and evolving. And that's one of the beauties of non monogamy, is allowing for things to grow and change, and just talking to each other as new feelings and desires arise.

Genevieve  23:36  

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Ishik  24:22  

As you say, You are the voiceless, right? And so given, especially that so much of Yeah, your like, online identity, and what you write about is about all of these, like, slutty sexual experiences and stuff like that, I'm assuming that in your staying non monogamous, that's still leaving a lot of room for casual sex and hookups and stuff like that. Has this transition in your current kind of primary relationship affected those in any way? Or is that sort of all like still kind of going as was?

Zachary Zane  24:53  

That's kind of like, almost ideally, if I could reach a place like kind of what I want to keep going? It's like, okay, so I have the intimacy with my primary partner, with the person I love, who I call her my girlfriend. I know, like, people don't necessarily love that I love it. It still makes me feel like when I was five years old and I wanted a girlfriend, and I get these warm, you know, fluttery feelings inside of me, and I just don't get the same for partner. So I actually really like the term girlfriend. I know my girlfriend now is currently a pro doc. So, like, she like kinkier things that I thought I'd even know existed, and my job is to know about the kinky things that existed. So we definitely have we're working on, you know, more like tantric sex and intimate sex as we're like, you know, working through avoidance issues and emotional trauma and baggage and all that shit. And I like having that intimate sex with her. And then I almost like having the non intimate sex with, you know, people from Grindr or Sniffies or Archer or whatever it is, where, oh, I can kind of do some of the kinkier, rougher, Wilder stuff that I like doing, specifically more so with guys. And I kind of have that in a way that actually doesn't necessarily threaten my relationship with my girlfriend now. So yeah, so it's kind of actually nice to have that because, yeah, these people aren't looking to date. I have to be careful about and this has been something in past relationships too, not over extending my sexual energy to these strangers. You know what I mean, where it's like, if I fucked a dude on Grindr during my lunch break and I'm supposed to see my girlfriend at night and she wants to have sex, I'm like, Well, I fucked for an hour today. Like I'm I'm not the tired, I'm not the machine. I'm boy tired now. I'm not Boy Slim, no, so and I don't have the energy or desire and making sure it can sometimes be easier to have sex, or actually, for me, it is undeniably easier to have sex with strangers. Right? As I told you, I'm working on this emotional intimacy stuff, and versus, like, having sex with someone I love is a little bit more challenging and looking them in the eyes, and so making sure that I don't because it's a little bit more challenging, there can be a desire for me to be like, well, let me just go have sex with random dudes and get fulfillment. I'm not in my head, and it's easy, and let's do that. And being like, Well, no, let's make sure to not do that. And yes, you can still have this random sex, and this boy, slut of you is still alive, and I want him to be alive. I don't want to kill him off completely. But yeah, we do have to be careful about balancing and not overextending.

Genevieve  27:20  

Yeah, in terms of your prioritizing, it sounds like you really are prioritizing right now, this being present during sex, this working on this intimacy you're having the most fun doing that with your girlfriend, so it makes sense that that would be more of a priority to preserve some energy. 

Zachary Zane  27:39  

Yeah, they. I feel like I ramble and then Genevieve you so succinctly some of my rambles, which I really, I really wish you could just be with me like in my mind all day, because Thank you. Yes, you very summarized very succinctly and nicely. Thank you. 

Ishik  27:55  

She's quite good at that. So I think often people in the non monogamous community will push back against being like, stereotyped as being like, just a bunch of horny sluts. And, you know, they wanting this, like, yeah, just not, not wanting to be stereotyped in that way. And I think conversely, you very wholeheartedly embrace the identity of the voice slut. Can you? Can you speak to that?

Zachary Zane  28:15  

A big thing I do in my work is I try to differentiate between, like, some of the stereotypes that are inherently, quote, unquote wrong versus the ones that actually are just like, there's actually nothing wrong with that. So like, you know, the idea that if we are cheaters or liars or greedies or, like, spreading STIs for, you know, bisexual people like those, there are things that are, like, inherently wrong with that. But if you're honest about being like, yeah, I want to be in an open relationship, because it's important for me to have multiple genders that I sleep with, and I won't be fulfilled otherwise. There's nothing actually wrong with that. Let's not conflate the two, especially when I first started writing about bisexuality in part, like almost my polyamory practices came from, like my bisexuality, I don't wanna say practices. That's not like the right word thinking like 2015 there was a very little like, specifically male bisexual visibility, too. And so much of it was dedicated to, at the time, trying to convince gay and straight people that we exist, as opposed to actually detailing what a bisexual experience is but so many like 10 things to never say to bisexuals, or 10 myths about bisexuality, and I realized I just kind of felt this pressure from reading all those articles to be like, the idea of me being monogamous with one person who has one gender, like no like. In order for me to be satisfied sexually. I know that I need to be sleeping with men and women and non-binary people until I die. I love being non monogamous, and I think I was just kind of like tired of feeling shame for something that I shouldn't have to feel shame for, and then leaning into the stereotypes where, if I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with it. And if I'm being honest and communicative, then, yeah, then do it and lean into it.

Ishik  30:04  

I love that. I would love to ask, you know, in the past that I have personally also identified as bisexual. Now I use terms more, like, queer is usually what I lean on. And I think there is a lot of variance in terms of, like, people who are attracted to more than one gender, using any number of these terms as they feel most comfortable to them. So I'd love to ask, you know, what is it you know about the term bisexual that you feel most like draws you to that term?

Zachary Zane  30:32  

The reason I prefer bi is, kind of a few reasons. But number one, it was the first word I knew. You know what I mean. I felt like it described me. And when I heard that word and embraced it, I felt like, oh, this describes my attractions. It also like I felt like I was part of the L G B T community, you know, like a like, it was one of the first four letters there. And I felt there was a level of, kind of almost brand recognition, as opposed to, you know, I'm attracted to all genders. So I could use the word pansexual when I say the word pansexual, or sexually fluid or queer, or omnisexual or ambisexual, people don't know what that means. So then I have to have a further conversation when I'm educating someone, versus if I say I'm bisexual, people actually know what that word means somewhat. There definitely is some debate, you know, among people as to what it means. But I think that was important. There were a lot of bisexual activists that came before me, and I want to kind of honor their legacy with this word. And then I think lastly, you know, I write for men's health is kind of one of the main places I write for, and now becomes an issue of like SEO, like search engine optimization. If I used words like pansexual or sexually fluid, people who are questioning their identity do not even know those words, they would not be able to find my work. And it's really important for me to reach as many questioning people as many bisexual or BI plus. You know, that's kind of a word that I've seen used to incorporate all the various levels of people who are not monosexual. 

Genevieve  32:05  

I never thought about it being in terms of being searchable, in terms of, you know, people who are newly questioning that this is the easiest, or maybe like most Yeah, common word that they might have exposure to.

Ishik  32:18  

Yeah kind of to launch off of that, you know, on the topic of other things that you are doing, you know, I did see just, I think, in the past day or two, that you were posting about the nonprofit, still bisexual. Oh yeah, you're working with and I'd love to hear a little bit more about the organization, and, like, you know what you're doing with them and stuff like that.

Zachary Zane  32:39  

Sure, so, I'm on the board of still bisexual. They needed some more guys. And I'm like, are you okay with me being kinky and sexy? Like, no, that's a part of bisexuality. Like, that's we're not trying to sugarcoat it. I said, Great, thank you. I'm like, you've read my content. I just want to confirm we're on the same page. But it's really, it's this nonprofit that tries to, you know, foster not only just bisexual visibility, because we're kind of moved beyond that a little bit, but actually fostering, like, in person community. And kind of, some of the things that they've been working on is like this bi mentorship program where you have these bi people you know who are over the age of 50, helping people who recently came out as bi. And they also have a big book that's going to be coming out, like, documenting, like, Oh, definitely, over 100 people sharing their buy experiences, and having everyone showing kind of the diversity of by experience. They also have these, like, get togethers, where I think the theme was, you know, bi furious, where they, like, went to a rage room. Let's just fucking break some shit. So it just does a shit ton of things for the buy community, and I just really appreciate that so much of it is focused on actually, in person meetups. So of course, this is the most voice slutty thing to do, but is, I'm selling nudes in exchange for donations. So if you, if you do, you could also just donate and not request a nude. I'm like, Mom, you don't need a nude just please. And I'm only doing this for, like, I guess, I guess, well, this is going to be coming out. I'll maybe do it again, because I want to help this. But Richie, I'm, like, I got to this for 72 hours. I can't be just jerking off on camera all day. Like, like, I need to, like, actually work. But just kind of a fun way to put those, put those boy slot skills to work, yeah, put those voiceless skills to work. It's a great organization. They need money, so please donate.

Genevieve  34:34  

In terms of, like, just all of the sexual variety that you experience, or, I guess you, you might have, like, more novelty. You might have more sexual novelty than most people might. For people who are new to exploring their sexuality or maybe even exploring group sex. Do you have any tips that you recommend to people so that they avoid getting overwhelmed but still have fun.

Zachary Zane  34:58  

Depending on what like what space? You're going into, going in with a partner, and this is like a group sex setting. Let's say, like, it doesn't even necessarily have to be like a it could just be a friend. It doesn't have to be someone that you're necessarily sleeping with. But I think just having someone by your side who you trust and can feel comfortable around can be really helpful. You know, there's always, I always try to say the stuff like, hey, like, you can always leave at any point, can always stop at any point. Never feel pressured to do anything that you don't want to do just because you start something it's and always knowing that there's always more to do. You know, like, I feel like sometimes our appetites a little bigger than our stomachs, eyes, whatever it is where it's like, I go in and oh my god, I want to do everything. I feel compelled to do everything. It's like, there's always more sexual experiences. If you're feeling off, if you're feeling tired, whatever it is, you don't have to do this. And I have been to sex parties where I go in, and whenever it is, it costs 30 bucks or 50 bucks. I go in, I do not like the vibe. And I'll wait for maybe 20 to 30 minutes. And just because, I mean, I also did pay the money, you know what? I mean, get your free drink in. Yeah, it could be for any number of reasons. I don't like the vibe, but for some reason I don't feel comfortable. I'm not finding anyone I want to sleep with, and I leave.

Ishik  36:16  

As somebody who's going to a lot of these sex parties, right? How do you maintain and engage in, like, safer sex practices, like, how do you have those conversations and while still keeping the mood up, you know, while still keeping the mood very sexy.

Zachary Zane  36:29  

I usually just go, Hey, I'm gonna grab a condom. Now, is that okay? I like, I instead be like, hey, what like? Just I feel like the default, especially in these places. Also, this depends between gay and straight spaces, so it's also knowing kind of the norm of the space that you're in. But I'm just gonna, like, hey, like, love to have sex with you. Do you want me to grab a condom and like that? That's it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah.

Ishik  36:53  

You know the directness, I think, is its own form of very sexy confidence. Absolutely, yeah. And I honestly, I think that that confidence comes through a lot in your essays. It's part of why I've definitely enjoyed reading them. They're super fun.

Genevieve  37:07  

I've loved reading your essays because, yeah, I grew up with a lot, and as I think a lot of people did just a lot of sexual purity culture and shame and stuff, and so in adulthood, you know, exploring my own sexuality and then reading your essays that are one like very fun. They're very fun. They're very cute and descriptive, and, you know, have a lot of flavor. But also, I can feel your enthusiasm and how you don't carry shame, or at least that's how it comes across. And that's liberating as someone reading it. I think it's generous to share that.

Zachary Zane  37:42  

Thank you. This is what I try to do. So hearing this is very affirming. Thank you.

Genevieve  37:47  

Yeah, there was one essay that started out and it was at the gaythering.

Zachary Zane  37:52  

That week. Was fucking insane. 

Ishik  37:55  

What's the title? Sweetheart, say the title. 

Genevieve  37:56  

Okay, okay, okay, yeah. So your story about that starts a throat goat, which is always, always a fun start. A throat goat, an Italian muscle daddy, a blonde haired twink and an Amazon goddess walk into Zach's room.

Zachary Zane  38:10  

It was, it was, yeah, that it's also like, not, like, I was there, like, on this press trip to write about it. But it's not the type of hotel you would stay at for a week, because, like, you're also, like, sleeping in this, like, BDSM room. So usually, like, you know, it has dark walls, the lighting is extremely harsh. And when you're actually there for, like, more that, like, it's a good place to have this kinky, anonymous encounter, but then to actually, like, sleep there for a week, I was like, I was like, Oh God, I need some bright walls and some light here.

Genevieve  38:41  

Have brunch in the dungeon. Yeah.

Zachary Zane  38:45  

Like, by the end, I'm like, I think messing with my head, I need to get the fuck out of here again. I had an amazing experience. This is not like, but it's just not a place necessarily you'd sleep at for a week. But like, the group of people that ended up coming through this establishment was all it was a diverse range of just, I just kind of loved how every experience there was unique and different and special with someone who looked completely different and had a different life story. And it was kind of like, I know, the hotel almost reminded me of, you know, I feel like, when you're in like a sci fi or like a fantasy series, how there's always, like a limbo at like a diner or something like that, or you have like that, I feel like that's something that I see often. And I felt like this was this like Limbo kind of hotel where people are like passing through as somewhat like specters in a weird sense, and they would come and you'd have these experiences with them. It was just an interesting week.

Genevieve  39:42  

Well, I loved it, you know, because personally, I easily get overstimulated, you know. So I've always thought, or maybe I've always known, that a place like that wouldn't really work for me. But I do love living vicariously through stories like that, and it's. Actually demystifies it a little bit so that if I ever did want to try it, I'd have an idea of what I'm what I'm walking into. So so it's fun. I appreciated it.

Ishik  40:09  

I would actually really like to, because you, before you were touching on this idea of interacting with so many different types of people that you wouldn't expect to interact with at like parties or at events and stuff like that, or having sex with, like, all people of different walks of life, right? And I think what that reminded me of is one of my favorite stories that you have described, which is when you met up with somebody who was, like, super conservative and, like, went to his place for a hookup.

Genevieve  40:36  

And then Fox News was playing in the background.

Zachary Zane  40:38  

Oh my god. That was, oh my god. Okay, so this was but we were having, like, the violentest sex, and I think that was what it was. And he was, like, gagging me with his dick to the point that I am not breathing. Eyes are like, I love this, like this, but this is hot for me, and I'm into it. But he's holding my head down. I am choking. There are tears running down my eyes, and then it's fucking Tucker Carlson, no, like on the TV, and it was, and this was so, not this past Christmas, but the like the Christmas before. So he was going on one of his war on Christmas, oh, my god, tirades. And I remember just being like, Wait, like, and this was an older like, so this was in Fort Lauderdale, which is kind of the gay part of outside Miami, a city outside of Miami, there's a very gay section. And it was an older Latino man, and he had, I realized, and I hindsight, as I thinking about this, and I'm actually looking around, I'm seeing just a ton of Mary's, like Virgin Mary, like the candles, but also like tapestries. And then to have Tucker Carlson while this man is doing, like very gay shit, there was something about that where I was like, What the fuck is going and at that point you have to lean it like, I mean, I could have excused myself, you know what I mean? Like that was, again, always an option, and I I have and yes, those like that, option is awkward. It is uncomfortable. I'm not going to pretend otherwise, but you do feel so much better about yourself when you're like, Hey, I'm actually not feeling this. I'm going to go. And I know how hard that is to say, and I've definitely wanted to say it, and have not. And it's taken me many years, and I still struggle with saying it, but you do feel better. Like with this, I was just like, all right.

Ishik  42:28  

Did it elevate it? Or was it just like, I have to, kind of like, shut that part out?

Zachary Zane  42:32  

Oh no, it elevated it. I I'm not supporting Tucker Carlson. I just love seeing other people get turned on. And I've just kind of people were like, You are glorifying. I'm like, Oh, I'm the first person to glorify or to be eroticized by something bad or something that doesn't turn them on, or something shameful, or someone who's trying to hurt them or bully them. Obviously, I do have some hard limits that, like, you know, and I'm not a huge pain person personally. So, like, I, you know, you're turned on by making me bleed or spanking to the point, but like, I'm just can't do that. My body physically can't do that. But like, I feel like I can fetishize, or maybe better word is, eroticize Any thing else. Like a lot of other things, like Tucker Carlson's the back, I have a Catholicism motif, and it's hot.

Ishik  43:26  

Thank you again, Zach.

Zachary Zane  43:27  

Thank you for having me on this was, yeah, I'm excited to kind of share where I am right now and how I keep evolving. It's a good feeling. I feel like when I it's tough. You know, I wrote this book and it exists, but it was only one point in time for where I was emotionally and where I was in my relationships, and people then read it five years later, 10 years later, and assume that this is who you still are now. So I think that's been a challenge of mine to being like, No, I've grown since this book already. Like I wrote it only two, three years ago, and I feel like I've changed so much so like just being given the opportunity to kind of express where I'm at now and to show that I'm always growing and changing, and that we all are is just really appreciated. Thank you.

Genevieve  44:10  

Thank you. 

Ishik  44:12  

Yeah, thank you so much. And I would love you know you already got to touch a little bit about still bisexual, and the fundraiser you doing for that, as well as your next upcoming book that you're working on, but I would love to invite you. Is there anything that you want to share about that you want the listeners to maybe go check out?

Zachary Zane  44:30  

So I mean, how many times I have to plug it? 10 million times, otherwise I feel like I haven't done my job. But definitely buy my book, voice slut and my more manifesto. It just came out on paperback, which is exciting. It is a hot pink cover now, which I love. And definitely check out the sub stack as well. And if you Google boy slot one word, it all comes up. And that has been, yeah, non fiction erotica for a long period of time. But it's also about to be growing and expanding as well. So you can also see that how it's going to be. Changing, but that's just been, yeah, it was the side project that started whatever, a few years ago and then just blew up. I got a ton of readers, so I love it. It's a lot of fun and worth checking out. 

Ishik  45:11  

So, yeah, so definitely, you know, Google boy slut and check out Zachary Zane on socials. What are your socials? 

Zachary Zane  45:20  

Oh, right now, I'm pretty much only on Instagram. That's the only thing that doesn't drive me completely nuts. I had to get off Twitter, and then I was like, I think I'm too old for Tiktok. So Zachary Zane underscore on Instagram is where most of my stuff is. 

Ishik  45:33  

Yeah, wonderful. And if you're looking for more polyamory content, Genevieve is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory. She's also on YouTube chill polyamory, where she discusses non monogamy in film and TV. 

Genevieve  45:46  

So you can support those projects and this podcast directly on Patreon, where you'll also get early access to videos, private stories, live Q and A's and an option for one on one peer support. So that's patreon.com/chill polyamory.

Ishik  45:59  

This has been I could never and for everyone listening, remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean you can't do it.