Genevieve  0:00  

Welcome to I Could Never, a show about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from chillpolyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, ishik.

Ishik  0:21  

Sorry, listeners, I just arrived on my hoverboard. I'm talking Marty McFly, not those little mini segway pieces of shit, okay, but it is not just me here today. I am so happy to welcome Rufai Ajala, aka Roo. They, she he have been so gracious in joining us here today. Welcome Roo.

Rufai Ajala  0:41  

Thank you for inviting me

Genevieve  0:43  

A little about Roo. They are non binary intimacy coordinator and one of screen daily stars of tomorrow. 2022 with over 15 years of experience working in the film industry, both in front of the camera as well as behind it. They also co authored the performers Bill of Rights and ethical guidelines for guest directors with acclaimed feminist filmmaker and director Erica Lust, we are so excited to talk with you today.

Rufai Ajala  1:08  

Thank you.

Ishik  1:12  

But you know, we can't do anything else before we get to the real star of the show. You love it. You live for it. It's Viber vent time.

Genevieve  1:21  

Vibe or Vent!

Ishik  1:22  

If this is your first time listening, we have an icebreaker called Vibe or Vent, where we each share something we are feeling good about and vibing with, or something that's pissing us off a little and we need to vent about. And you know what I would love to start this time, because I am vibing, maybe vibing about baby. So we took our beautiful pups, our Pitbull and our Corgi out for a walk, and we took them to a nearby park. It's called drakenspielplatz, or dragon dragon clay place. Yeah, Dragon play place, and it's not so different. Well, except for one thing from other parks in Berlin. It does have a giant wooden dragon, but the place is just like so full of wonder. There's all these like giant steps and like secret passageways behind bushes that kids could definitely like, create narratives about going through, like a secret, magical tunnel. And like, it just felt so full of adventure and like whimsy and fun. I was imagining jumping off things. They had these awesome trees that you could climb and, like, I could think of a dozen different fun adventures in that moment that I would do as a kid. And like, how big everything felt there. I felt like a kid again for one night, and it was really, really fun and nice. And I don't know it's just stuck with me. Ever since then, I've been feeling really happy. So.

Genevieve  2:38  

I do really like German playgrounds, because they are very much constructed by hand and a little bit dangerous, like, a lot of splinters, a lot of wood.

Ishik  2:47  

And, like, even there's some playgrounds that are, like, kind of playgrounds for, like, teens, you know, they don't, they're not kids playgrounds. They're, they're like, it's very clearly a place for teens to hang out. And it's like, nice that they like, think about that. Or it's not just like you're a kid and then, you know, go do drugs. They give us a safe place to do drugs. 

Genevieve  3:06  

Yeah, there's Yeah, more, more, third places for all ages. Yeah.

Ishik  3:11  

Roo, what about you?

Rufai Ajala  3:14  

I feel I am venting. Going to place a vent. 

Genevieve  3:19  

Okay, let us have it.

Rufai Ajala  3:20  

So I am a new driver. I mean, I've been driving a motorcycle for the last three years, but driving a car, and I went in for my first service ever, and it was reasonably priced, but then there's always the additional bits that kind of added on. So it was like, Yeah, reasonably priced at first, and then after the mechanic had a look, or the additional bits, and it was just so, like, exuberantly priced, and I was just a bit like, this is like, a relatively new car. How, how am I suddenly getting this big expense, but it's still part of the new, I guess, car experience, or the new kind of, like owning a car, so I'm taking it in my stride. But, yeah.

Genevieve  4:02  

Yeah. Like, excuse me, I needed one thing. Why are there eight things here?

Ishik  4:06  

Okay, so the service, the service itself, was, like, 20 quid, but then it's a 50 quid service fee, and also the man hours, that's another 100, you know? Like.

Genevieve  4:17  

Sure, oh yeah, I get that. But happy driving, though, that's exciting. Good luck. Thanks. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think I'm vibing today, speaking, I guess, of giant monsters like the dragon. I'm getting a giant Gator tattoo, an alligator tattoo from my neck down to my knee. And I've already done two sessions. I'm doing the third one in a couple of days. It'll probably be like a six to eight month process because it's so big. But I'm just excited. I love how tattoos make me feel in my body, just feeling more at home, decorating the place. So, yeah, yeah.

Ishik  4:57  

It's awesome. Um. But let's get into some polyamory. Let's talk about love. Let's talk about lots of love. 

Genevieve  5:05  

Yeah, so Roo, we like to start out to get a sense of what your non monogamy looks like. So can you tell us about your relationship structures and Yeah, who's in your life at the moment? 

Rufai Ajala  5:16  

So we haven't. We've moved a little bit from labels with my long term partner, but I was maybe describe them as like an anchor partner that I live with, and we've, yeah, we've been going almost nine years. Then there's two or three queer, platonic or comet relationships that I have, that I see when the time, when time permits those partners are in other countries, and distance and life, and there's currently one person that I'm it's a very new relationship a month and a half old, and we haven't really labeled things. But I think for a long time, I really had an affinity towards like solo poly compared to everything else, and that's kind of shifted and changed over the years. 

Genevieve  6:04  

Yeah, with your longer term, nine year partner, what? What brought you to sort of moving away from labels? Why does that feel good?

Rufai Ajala  6:13  

I think we always had not conflict, but, like, really enthusiastic discussions about it's very diplomatic. I was very much like, I guess, reading everything by textbook definitions and wanting to implement that in my life. And I was, maybe I was quite rigid. And there was a lot of, I guess, like back and forth kind of discussions with me and her, because she's married. She's been married 1012, years before we even met, and how, I guess her relationship morphed and changed over the years, and her coming from Italy and not no specific labels and stuff. So with her, it was just more like you can kind of pick and choose, and you don't have to be so rigid to something that might not be working for you, and maybe we just create something that works for us. It's still an ongoing kind of thing of like, the mean labels are very soothing. I remember when I first found pansexual and queer like that was very much like affirming to me, compared to bisexual, because growing up in the 90s and early 2000s where I think the label, I think the message at that time was bisexual wasn't really for for men at the time, they were instantly labeled gay. And there was like, men couldn't be bisexual. So I grew very distant from the word. But then, yeah, like discovering pansexual was like, almost like Mecca, kind of, you know, meeting this thing that I felt so lost, having that shorthand, and I guess some of the foundation of what creates that label, it's easy to kind of communicate, or like, anchor myself with or align with,

Genevieve  7:58  

in terms of your current anchor partnership, you also live with them. Can you tell us a little bit about what your living situation is like, and, yeah, how you navigate it?

Rufai Ajala  8:09  

So I think we've been living together for almost five years. So yeah, like a big portion of our relationship, it kind of came out of during covid times I was a little bit homeless, and she gracefully took me in, and she lives with her husband. And I think context is my anchor partner is 12 years older than me, and then her husband is 12 years older than her. But ever since the beginning, like the first date I had with my anchor partner was a double date me and her and her husband and someone he was dating. So, you know, the first time we met, I met her husband, but he's always been very someone I really idolize or aspire to be like. In terms of my partner explained it in this way, where sometimes when me and her have arguments, she would then go to him for either, like, a different perspective on the argument and stuff like that, and most of the time he was defending me, or would, you know, would when she was like, not in the wrong, but like she was not quite seeing it for the full picture, it was, and, yeah, he would stick up for me. And I thought in that early days of, I think being so new to polyamory and having this, this kind of meta who was speaking, speaking on my behalf, or, like, defending me, was quite, yeah, like, I hadn't quite had that. So he's very non judgmental when it doesn't seem like he has much like jealousy or envy and stuff like that. And it's someone that I've kind of like really aspired to be. So yeah, when you know, they took me in, they were really supportive of me, you know, I was going through a difficult time, and. Around that period, and they financially, kind of supported me for like, two, three years after that time, when I was able to stand on like my two feet, I've tried to give back. And, yeah, they've become like family and and through those early periods, you know, I think the first time we kind of like started living together, we were all living in a one bedroom or sleeping on one bed. But over the years and times, you know, we've managed to move into places where I have my own bedroom, they have their bedroom, and you know, we still have, like conflict, or still have, I think, when you live with anyone, you're bound to have points of frustration and stuff. I think my my partner, has maybe been in a position where she's tried to make things as smooth as possible for everyone. I really commend her for that, because a lot of that is, I guess, unseen labor. But yeah, for the last five years, it's been going really well. Recently, I think, because I just finished my master's program, I've never really lived alone. So I recently approached my partner with the desire to live alone, I think at first, kind of explaining that that desire of living alone or away from each other was not due to our relationship or any change in our relationship, or any de escalation in our relationship, it was just more desire. I've never lived alone, and I would like to kind of explore that for a bit. She had to sit with that for a bit, and she's fine with it. But, you know, sometimes some of these kind of things kind of take a bit of time to digest. So overall, it's been a good experience, kind of living together. Like, I think, you know, in any situation, there's always hiccups. But like, I think we, we always come to it with a sense that whatever we do, we're not intentionally trying to harm each other, and that, yeah, would always try and talk about things.

Ishik  11:58  

I'm really like, it's, I think it's beautiful that you the relationship is able to, you know, not, I think weathered or whether this change is is an overly negative way. But like, you know that it's not a reflection on the health or value or well being of your relationship with your anchor partner that you want or need this for yourself. I think that's really beautiful. And I love that, you know, it makes sense that she struggled a little bit to hear that and probably had concerns that it had something to do with the relationship. But yeah, you know, I love that you have enough trust and openness and communication that that came through. Thank you. I did want to ask you have this meta. You are not romantically involved with them or sexually involved with your meta, but you did all sleep together in the same bed? Yeah, so I just, you know, I'm certain that people will probably have questions and like confusion. Did that ever present any like challenges in like, either of your sexual relationships with your with this shared anchor partner, how did you guys kind of navigate time spent in the space? Like, did you regularly have alone time? Like, how did that work? Just, yeah, any details about the arrangement would be probably interesting.

Rufai Ajala  13:19  

Yeah, so our relationship is a V instead of Yeah, like a triangle, triad or one, yeah. And not that it couldn't have been, but I guess Yeah, like her husband, at the time when our relationship first started, considered himself straight, and now, I mean, he's gone through a journey, you know, it's been nine years, and he kind of identify sexually different. But yeah, I think our relationship from the beginning was a V, and still is a V. They lived in a one bedroom or a studio, a very small studio, so whenever, when I've visit, we would get a hotel room or something like that. But being working class and and also coming from a place of limited resources, my anchor partner did, had to do a lot of juggling, making sure that we were all okay with spending time with each other or sleeping in the same bed. But whenever I did use the visit like it was quite normal for us to sleep in the bed like that was, I guess maybe at the time, it was kind of weird, but I can't remember it. It was so long ago, but that was very normal because, yeah, they lived in a in a studio flat with no couch and stuff. The bed was the couch to watch TV. But yeah, like, I think what ultimately, like, she made sure she communicated a lot between all of us and all of us, together or separately. And because they're both Italian, they also made a conscious effort, to which I never understood, and I always tried to tell them, Don't do it. They always made a conscious effort when they were in my presence, even. It was a topic that had nothing to do with me to speak in English when it would be much faster to speak in Italian, because they felt that if they spoke in Italian, even if the subject was not about me, it might, you know, we all have our own, not mistrust, but like, insecurities. Yeah. So I was just even grateful for that forethought, you know, way before even the problem had even approached. And yeah, they, you know, they would consider that. So there was a lot of like communication that even sometimes I was not even aware of, to make sure that things were anticipating issues that might arise.

Genevieve  15:39  

There's a lot of thoughtfulness and proactivity, yeah? And it sounds like there's a lot of wholesomeness because of that. Like, when, when you describe the three of you sleeping in the same bed, it sounds cute,

Rufai Ajala  15:53  

yeah? I think maybe, yeah. Maybe not for my partner, like she was always in the middle and super boiling, you know, two hot bodies.

Lola Phoenix  16:06  

Navigating relationships can be hard enough, but if you're in a non monogamous or polyamorous dynamic, the questions and challenges can feel kind of overwhelming. If you've ever felt lost, unsure or just needed some guidance through these difficult feelings, non monogamy help is here for you. I'm Mola Phoenix, your host, advice columnist and the admittedly anxious author of the anxious Person's Guide to non monogamy. Each week I help real people like you navigate their emotions, set boundaries and embrace the complexity of what is polyamory. Whether you're just starting out or experienced from dealing with jealousy to managing time between partners, You'll hear real, compassionate advice grounded in the experience of the anxious and empathy. Subscribe to free updates on my website between September 5 and September 20, and you'll be entered for a chance to win a free audiobook of the anxious Person's Guide to non monogamy. I hope this helps, and good luck.

Genevieve  16:59  

Yeah, so I know that you're an intimacy coordinator. Can you tell us a bit about what that is, if that's a new term to people, as well as how you got into it? 

Rufai Ajala  17:08  

So yeah, like an intimacy coordinator is someone specifically on TV and film who takes care or kind of choreographs scenes of intimate nature, nudity, simulated sex or kissing or scenes of a heightened nature, so that might also include birthing scenes or sexual violence scenes or elements of like race or kink or alternative relationship styles. Yeah, and intimacy coordinator just helps choreograph those scenes, if that's within the skill set, as well as takes care of like a cast and ensures their safety, as well as ensuring the production's needs and preserving the directors like creative vision. I got into the role because I've done a lot of work supporting artists or extra, as I think the layperson normally calls them, doing, yeah, full nudity or simulated sex or nude scenes for quite a lot of big TV shows and stuff, and meeting an intimacy coordinator whilst I was doing that, and thinking that was like a great role. So that was kind of one way. Another way was like as a cinematographer. I was through this kind of community that I'm part of, the kind of queer cutie pop community, shooting a lot of like intimate scenes queer sex, or trans people going through surgery, like top surgery and stuff like that. So they were quite sensitive and figuring out how to best support cast, many of whom were my friends, like when we were filming these stories. So I think having that approach, like in front of the camera, but also behind the camera, was how I found out about the role, and kind of trained in the role and support, not only myself and colleagues in front of the camera, but also like behind the camera as well. 

Genevieve  19:02  

So I know that film and TV says can be pretty intense environments with a lot going on, you know, with this goal of helping everyone feel safe, especially in emotionally heightened scenes. Like, how do you typically deal with that? Like, what is what does that look like? 

Rufai Ajala  19:19  

Everyone's process is different, but one of the processes I was taught was to always find out what the lead creatives what their vision is for the scene or the intimacy. Then have chats with the actors and the cast about what their personal boundaries are, and are those boundaries in conflict with what their characters are going to be doing and stuff. Then have a chat with the director and be like, maybe instead of a doggy position, they would prefer to lie on their back and stuff like that. So finding, like, a kind of middle ground that still maintains the level of intimacy that the director wants, but might be slightly different.

Ishik  19:58  

I had seen that in one of your posts. Line some of the myths about intimacy coordination. And I think the one that jumped out to me was being perceived as, like, the quote, fun, please, yeah. And I think the reason why it jumped out to me is because there's sort of a similar set of myths that exist with non monogamy. Like, I can't say how often people in the comments are like, Oh my God. Like you guys turned relationships into work, like you're having scheduling and meetings and stuff, instead of just, like having sex, or like, dating or whatever

Genevieve  20:30  

They call me. HR,

Rufai Ajala  20:32  

Yeah. Oh, wow. 

Ishik  20:34  

And so I think it ultimately helps though, like, is the thing, right? Like people are are deriding this idea of having hard conversations about feelings, or like planning time to be sexual or intimate, or just spending time, like planning spend time with your partners, right? And like, yeah, then you're actively participating in your relationship. You're actively participating in your love and in your life, and it, yeah, I feel like it frees people up to be to feel more safe, to be their tRoo selves, yeah, and to have what they really want happen. Happen. You know?

Rufai Ajala  21:11  

Exactly, yeah, yeah. I don't know why everyone's so fearful of, like, the conversations. Like, what like, Why does everyone just want to, like, let's just do it. Or like, let's just kind of, like, see, you know, like, no one wants to have like, yeah, what's I don't Yeah, what's, what's wrong. 

Ishik  21:30  

Especially because they don't do that in any other areas, right? Nobody's like, well, what you're gonna tell me how to use this parachute when I jump out of this fucking plane? Like, what are you talking about? I have to read a manual, like, it's so stupid. You're taking the fun out of this. 

Rufai Ajala  21:45  

Like, do you feel like those same people, like, sometimes when I'm having sex, like, would have breaks and, like, have like, discussions and then continue or whatever, and I feel like sometimes people like that, any kind of break is like, Oh, you're taking the fun out. Like, it's not.

Genevieve  22:00  

I had that happen a few months ago where I was like, Oh yeah, I'm i You want to just, like, pause and just chill for a second, or even if I would say, like, Hey, you feel like having sex, like there's you're taking all the magic out of it, like there should be this, like, like, I had to perform some sort of sultry seduction and, like, it all had to be the fun didn't exist without, like, subtext that you had to guess and interpret. And I was like, but no, I'm telling you what I want. Can we do can we do it? Yeah, that is very true, yeah.

Ishik  22:31  

I mean, I think it definitely is this, the whole idea of, like, the game, you know, the quote, unquote, Game of courting and sex. And it's like, you know, the fun part is the sex, right? Like, yeah, I just said, Do you want to have sex? Like, it's not that this is a good thing. Yeah, I should be happy about this. Like, I don't know.

Genevieve  22:50  

I don't know. I think, I think there's a non zero chance of someone's annoyed at the conversation or the interruption. I then become curious about how annoyed they are at knowing for sure that they have consent, you know. And so it's not every time, but it does sort of make me a bit more curious, because that can be where, like, a lot of that frustration comes from, as they're not, they're not doing what they want, and good to know, you know, if that is the case, I'd rather know now. But, yeah, no, I love that. I love that there's this role. Now professionally, I heard about that show the idol that, like, yeah, they had like, they played it for laughs, that the the intimacy coordinator was the bad guy and like, so there's still work to be done, but I'm just very happy that it's becoming more expected, and that actors know that they can expect in that power dynamic, that there should be somebody on set looking out for them.

Ishik  23:49  

Yeah, you know, you mentioned community, and that being kind of part of how you got into this role. And I'd love to ask, you know, how have you really found your way into community? What does that look like for you and and what role has that played for you in your non monogamy?

Rufai Ajala  24:04  

One of the communities I was really part of was the kink community. And I co founded the first POC Munch, the first people of color Munch in the UK. Cutie POC so like queer, trans, intersex people of color, kind of coming together and forming community around those marginalized identities. And, I mean, I don't know whether there's like, a term, like, the same as baby queer, like there's a monogamy. I mean,

Ishik  24:29  

I think we've always said baby poly.

Rufai Ajala  24:32  

Baby polyam, a baby sapling poly.

Ishik  24:35  

Sapling. I like that.

Rufai Ajala  24:40  

But yeah, in that kind of period where I was very, quite new and very eager and hungry for information and community, and particularly also exploring my queerness at that time as well, 2012 2015 period, there was this kind of bubble, um, yeah, in London. It. Particularly, and, yeah, I just remember finding so many kind of queer community, and then through that meeting, I guess the more broader London non monogamy community, which existed very much like I feel adjacent to, like the BDSM community, and there was a lot of like online discourse, on Facebook groups and actively having polyamory day and finding other resources. And this might be maybe my perspective or but when I was that young sapling and going to all of those polyamory events, poly drinks and poly dinner at the time, there was almost like a feeling of being kind of like preyed upon by all of these, like polyamory people either. Maybe because I was new, but for some reason, like there was all of these questions about race and stuff and and I think the same thing was also the same in, like, the kink community, like I was, like one out of what, three black people within the London kink community who were active, out of, you know, 100 200 so I can kind of understand the you are the only person for all of this kind of information. But it just felt very much like all of these people coming straight to me for either wanting to date me or what is your reasoning? Is it just in a law of like wanting to date black people, like black men, or whatever stereotypes of that? Yeah, I felt kind of, I guess, like a piece of meat or whatever like, because it just was purely sexual on that, without me knowing that, and then along the way, finding out that it was just, I guess, the excitement of, like dating someone black and stuff. 

Ishik  26:36  

And I mean, it sounds and please tell me if this doesn't feel correct, but it sounds like you were feeling fetishized,

Rufai Ajala  26:42  

yeah, and even in my own sense, like I remember a lot of my partners ended up being white, and even if they were people of color, like they were very light skinned, and I had to then also do some introspection on myself and be like, Why are none of none or, like, very little of my partners not dark skin or black or anything like that. And then I had to do a lot of, like, introspective work around that, and came to, I guess, like so many conclusions, you know, either that event diagram of like people who were poly, who were queer, or who were accepting of me, and also being in the UK and in London, were usually white, and then making, I guess, like, an a conscious effort to to change that as well. And then, yeah, being more involved in like, Qd pop communities and black people of color communities and stuff like that open up the area of people I was, like, engaging with, and also, like, potentially could they and be in relationship with. It was just a really exciting time at that time, and but then at some point, I think after amassing all of this knowledge and almost you feel like you're you know everything, and then you're like, oh, I don't need any of this, and not doing away with it. But some of the subjects that people talk about are less nuanced and stuff and kind of go over the same things. So yeah, I was beginning to be less engaged. And again, this was prior to covid. Yeah, I was going through like, some own personal kind of issues. And all of yeah, my relationships ended, apart from the one with my anchor partner and a few of my comet relationships. So yeah, at some point my the sense of, like, non monogamy community just kind of became Me, myself, my partner and her husband, and, like, my comment relationships, and that was pretty much through covid, and then starting my masters in cinematography, I'm now, you know, coming back out and, like, re engaging with community and discovering new things that I wasn't aware of, and kind of Getting out of that mindset of, like, where you thought you knew everything, and kind of, so, yeah, my sense of community has kind of morphed and changed over the years, because sometimes I needed to be more insular and with myself, or sometimes, yeah, like I was the community was much larger.

Ishik  29:00  

You know, I gotta say, it's pretty clear when you start to speak about, like, the Qt, POC communities, and when you found that that you're late, your face just lights up, right? It's very clear that it brings you a lot of joy. What do you feel like feels different for you in those spaces? By that you feel like you don't get in other, like, from elsewhere.

Rufai Ajala  29:22  

I remember, like, some of my partners didn't want to engage in conversations around race when I felt it was very important, and quite a few of my partners were white, but not wanting to have those conversations, it became quite a frustrating point. And then having this other community. Yeah, this, could you pop community, all of those discussions of, like, marginalized identities and race and sexuality and gender and stuff in how to better take care of each other and being engaged more in that was really important. And because, yeah, with, for example, with my long term anchor part. The like, one of the things that we did discuss earlier on is about, um, she's white and Italian. I'm black, I'm black British, but grew up mostly in like, West Africa, how like, race might impact our relationship, and she's been been a dominatrix, or is, yeah, a big Kingston, and when we play, how that also impacts us, and how that might impact us within non monogamy. So yeah, it was, I feel very important, and also learning from other like key pop people and having a community to have those conversations was there was, like a hunger for it.

Ishik  30:34  

I mean, sounds like it was really beneficial and helpful, not only for feeling that sense of belonging, right and understanding, but also specifically providing like support to how to navigate these kinds of complicated intersections, right? I did want to ask, you know, were there, can you share an example of one of the conversations that might have occurred between you and your anchor partner, and maybe how it got resolved.

Rufai Ajala  31:01  

Yeah. I mean, like, the first ones that kind of jump to mind are like, maybe kink related, but I'm sure there's, like, you know, non monogamy ones, but because they're all like, cross over and into lap, so it's very hard to kind of be like, this is, you know, you belong in the non monogamy kind of, like, corner over there.

Ishik  31:19  

Let's be honest. For many of us, the Venn diagram is just a circle. It's fine, no worries. A kink one is fine.

Rufai Ajala  31:28  

Yeah, like, as I said, my my partner's worked as a dominatrix, and is quite dominant stuff. And then I really enjoyed, like, a lot of impact play and being quite bratty and stuff. And, yeah, we kind of played a lot with that, and played publicly and stuff, you know, using, like, whips and flogs, floggers and hands and pedals and all kind of implements. And in one sense, it's like, okay, how is this depicted? Or how does this kind of look from the outside, I felt fine, but there's still, like, outside of us, how, I guess other people might view it as like a white woman hitting and flogging like a black guy and stuff like that. So there's definitely, yeah, there was a lot of stuff to kind of like unpack. Then how, where does that? I guess desire of sadism kind of come from, and stuff like, and is it just only tools like people of color and or is it just being a sadist in general? And I'm really grateful that we were able to go through and advocate all of those discussions. And, you know, it doesn't stop just, you know, have it once or at that time, even though, like, my boundaries have changed and my likes and preferences has changed, it's still ongoing, which is great, because other partners that I had at the time didn't want, you know, there was one particular partner that also was a dominatrix and who didn't want to kind of engage in that discussion at all. And I guess our relationship really suffered and ended because of that. And and my relationship with my long term partner, you know, ended up flourishing,

Ishik  33:13  

You were describing how early on in exploring your poly you were more rigid, yeah, with, with the labels, right? Because then you've discussed how that, you know, it brought a feeling of kind of security and safety, like a steadiness to it. You know, can you give an example of, like, what that rigidity looked like in practice, and how that may have, like, caused some like, challenges or clashing with partners and stuff like that?

Rufai Ajala  33:34  

So, yeah, my long term partner, my anchor partner, like, she was very, like, open to, like, discussing about her partners and, yeah, sharing intimate details and stuff like that. And I think one of the Yeah, I guess the pillars, or the foundations of like solo polyamory, is like independence and and my sense of like divulging that info was very much like in conflict with, like, her way of how, you know, what also made her feel safe and comfortable in a relationship. Like, I think knowing every detail made her feel safe and made her feel comfortable. But then I would kind of, I guess, push back and kind of be like, you know, solar polyamory kind of says this. Or like, you know, I value like independence, and, yeah, there were, like, a lot of kind of core values of solo polyamory that I really valued. And I felt that kind of like maybe interrupted some of the communication, the level or the, I guess, more than necessary, kind of levels of communication that she wanted. And I think it was only when I understood where her need for wanting to know all of that info came from, and that it made her then feel safe or like less anxious, or like envious or jealousy and stuff like that, and it was not coming from a place of control or or wanting to be manipulative or in any kind of way. Um, then I yeah, that kind of came much more freely, and kind of being able to give that, yeah.

Genevieve  35:06  

Sort of like, um, well, it sounds like understanding the goal behind the ask is really important, yeah. Um, it's like, oh, well, if you just want to feel safer, that's fine. I thought you were trying to be a lot more interdependent, or, yeah. And it sounds like that there's more of a focus right now on not what the relationship is called as much as what the relationship does. Does that feel accurate?

Rufai Ajala  35:30  

Yeah, I think yeah, it's like, and again, I have a very hard time for it, because, like, labels have been so important for me. So sometimes I really have to kind of, like, catch myself and yeah, like going away from that and just kind of, I don't think, going with the flow, but like seeing, seeing it for what it is, with all the kind of, yeah, the mechanics, or the kind of pieces that form that relationship, and each one's going to be different at one point. Had like, nine partners or nine relationships, and this was very early, and on my Holly journey, like I was, a young person.

Genevieve  36:08  

That's very ambitious. Can you, I know you said you were young, I imagine you had a bit more time, but yeah, I would love to know, like a bit of what that was like, the different types of connections and in general, like, what was an average week like for you when you were managing all those dynamics? 

Rufai Ajala  36:29  

Yeah, I was definitely young, inexperienced. Didn't know the term polysaturated, and maybe didn't feel it. I mean, I think again, I was like, I was also still figuring out polyamory at that time, still quite new, I think, like, a year or a year and a half into it, and almost like a kid at a candy store, like, Give me, give me, like everything, and not quite knowing that I'm gonna wake up with a massive early egg. Haven't eaten all this sweets and stuff, but those relationships made sense to me at the time. Like I had three that were more like, I guess, anchor relationships. Then I had three others that were more fluid, and yeah. And then there were three outside of those. They were more, yeah, like, friends with benefits, slash what I would now label maybe queer, platonic, or like comment or like kind of more, is desperate. The right word, you know, in terms of managing like, I feel like, yeah, I was doing all the communication right. But then Yeah, over time, I I realized I couldn't manage everything. But I feel like, quite Yeah. One of those anchor relationships was my nine year relationship, which is still kind of going. Two of those were, like, my queer, platonic relationships that are still going and are lifelong, you know, like they would always have a place in my life, like my friend, like, yeah, they're so central to my life, and I can never see them ever leaving. 

Genevieve  38:02  

You know, you mentioned the term queerplatonic a couple of times. What does that mean for you? Walk us through that.

Rufai Ajala  38:11  

I feel like the definition of the label I'm always struggling to kind of, it's hard to put it in words, but for me, like either it's a relationship that can't quite be categorized under a normative definition or category, but also, there's a sense of that really, relationship might shift and change multiple times within a week or a month or days or whatever you know it's it has the ability to shift and change, and that's okay with, like, the people who are in that relationship. So with this friend, you know, like, this was a person who, yeah, when I was like 1718, was like the first guy I kind of had a crush on. When we were, like, maybe quiz or whatever, we never had a relationship. But then when, much later, when around like 21 you know, we had a sexual kind of relationship, but we always had, you know, from 1718 we'd always had a friendship. There were romantic components to our friendship. Yeah, we were not a couple. And each time we meet, it's always different. It could be platonic, it could be romantic, it could be sexual, and we have such a strong sense of a friendship and a relationship that I can't quite define. I've just known that person for so long, and I've I will know them until I'm old,

Genevieve  39:32  

for sure. That's usually how I've used the term too, some form of significant person with a more fish shape of what it is we do together, but it is why I ask, like, what does that mean for you? Because I think of any of the labels, that's definitely one that has fluidity in and of itself. But I think a lot of even monogamous people, when they consider, do I have people in my life who have been there for. 10 or 20 years who? Yeah, we've had fleeting romance. We've had we hooked up 10 years ago, but, like, they're important. But what do we call that? Right? So I think it is a much more common experience, and I'm really happy that there's increased effort to put words to it without putting it in a box.

Ishik  40:18  

Yeah, you know, what is one thing that you know you absolutely love, if you will. What are you vibing about with your current like life and your relationships and non monogamy?

Rufai Ajala  40:32  

My anchor partner, who has really been through some tough times with me and supported me financially for two, three years when I was in a really dark, dark place. And knows a lot about me, I guess, emotionally, and is like an emotional anchor, I guess. But I also love, yeah, like these, like new, budding relationships that I have where I'm starting. I've started dating people also, I guess, in my field, in like film and cinema, and that kind of gives another component. You know, my my anchor partner, and I don't working in the same field, but having a relationship with someone I'm dating who does like as like, a whole different dynamic and is quite exciting as well. And because a lot of comet relationships or quiplatonic relationships are quite far away, like they're almost like, not a holiday destination, but like in New York, I have someone who equally cares for me and could put me up and knows about me. We might not have caught up in like, three months, nine months, and we can just kind of catch up. And it seems like, you know, one of those friendships where you just pick up where you left off, and they would always hold an important place. Yeah, I really love, I love that. 

Ishik  41:52  

You know, it's something that's come up a few times, is this idea of like, security and safety and consistency, right? And even when there's fluidity in in some of these queer, platonic relationships, even though there is generally, I think, a larger perception that polyamorous people, non monogamous people are flighty, or that these are all like phases, or people are going to be coming and going and all this, you know, nonsense, because you're here, you are talking about this, this relationship you've had for nine plus years that's seen you through thick and thin. Meanwhile, you also have all of these other beautiful, secure, safe relationships, queer, platonic relationships, growing ones, where you're starting to develop that same sense of security and that none of them challenge the other one's security, right? It's not like, none of them make the relationship with your anchor partner unsafe. It's just more safety. It's almost like, whoa. We have more community.

Genevieve  42:52  

Yeah, I think that conversation can often reveal like, how, how much people have thought about what safety feels like, or what it looks like. You know, because we are, if we are raised in a mono, normative community or environment, we're taught, well, you are chosen, therefore you are safe. You are the one, so you don't have to worry anymore. But then that's demonstrably not tRoo for a lot of people. And so yeah, just kind of imagining, even if somebody wants monogamy, like, Okay, what I'm hearing when you're describing security and safety is like reliability and trustworthiness and consistency, and even in these newer connections that are still a bit negotiated at the moment, that they're willing to talk about it, that would Make me feel safe with someone, you know. And so, yeah, what is, what does safety look like? How does it behave? Not you know what status? 

Ishik  43:50  

Yeah, it. I think it's too big of a topic to really broach now, and I'm not gonna remotely try to, but there is definitely something to the isolating experience of mono normativity, right? Like how isolating kind of the normative society wants us to feel, and how, as we challenge even the basic idea of non monogamy, or of monogamy, rather, we are kind of inexorably, like we're forced to start to question all of these other things about community, and develop community to, like, make it because we aren't taught these things, and then, in so doing, we feel safer. We feel more security. We're having more of these conversations because we're not taught what to do, and we're figuring it out, and we're realizing, whoa. As people, we actually kind of naturally really want community and support and safety. 

Genevieve  44:49  

We want to thank you so much Roo for coming through. And I would love to invite you to plug any of your upcoming projects, tell people where they can find you and what you're working on. Yeah.

Rufai Ajala  44:59  

Yeah. I mean, I'm currently working on very little because of the After Effects, post writer and actors strike, but one I guess, exciting project I'm working on is with aorta films about a queer, haunted ghost love story.

Ishik  45:18  

You said so many good words just now.

Genevieve  45:20  

Count me in.

Rufai Ajala  45:24  

Aorta films is an ethical queer horn company based out of New York that do some really amazing representation in Yeah, like queer horn and stuff more narrative based, but some components of, like intimacy in there as well and exploring all aspects of Yeah, like hauntedness and queerness and yea.

Genevieve  45:45  

Very cool. And are you on social media? 

Rufai Ajala  45:49  

Yes, I'm on Instagram. Intimacy with Roo & Rufai Ajala. I'm more active just sharing memes. I don't post much, but yeah, you can find me there.

Ishik  46:02  

Yeah, awesome. And if you are looking for more non monogamy content, you can find Genevieve on Instagram and Tiktok at chill polyamory, where she's making short form content all about non monogamy, as well as on YouTube, at chill polyamory, where she has long form media analysis, video essays. Go check them out. 

Genevieve  46:23  

And if you want more long form resources and deep dives on polyamory, I have a six year catalog where I've posted every week on patreon.com/chill polyamory. That's a way that you can support this. Show support all the projects I'm working on, and get some bonus goodies as well. So it's patreon.com/chill polyamory.

Ishik  46:42  

And to all the listeners out there, remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it.