Genevieve  0:08  

Welcome to I Could Never, a show about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from chill polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, Ishik.

Ishik  0:19  

Okay, so listeners hear me out. She is not convinced that she should change her entire brand to be dog related. Content.

Genevieve  0:27  

Oh God, and what would that even look like baby?

Ishik  0:28  

Chill puppyamory.

Genevieve  0:32  

We're breaking up.

Ishik  0:36  

Anyways. We'll table that for later. We're definitely doing it, but unrelated to that, we are joined by a wonderful guest today. Please help me welcome Michelle Hy.  Michelle, how's it going?

Michelle Hy  0:50  

Hello. I'm happy to be here.

Genevieve  0:52  

Michelle runs the page polyamorous while Asian, where she's normalizing non monogamy, amplifying the voices of other POC in the space and talking about body confidence, sex positivity, how the personal is political. We love it. 

Ishik  1:07  

Yes, we are very excited to have you. 

Michelle Hy  1:09  

Yeah, no. Thanks so much for inviting me.

Ishik  1:10  

Well, there is something that we have to talk about. Something dark is looming in the shadows. It's coming for us. It's Vibe or Vent. 

Genevieve  1:19  

It's Vibe or Vent!

Ishik  1:20  

It's here.

Genevieve  1:21  

For anyone listening for the first time, we always like to start the show off with a little icebreaker called vibe or vent, where we'll each take a beat to share a bit about something that's either really making us happy this week or something that sucks that we need to get off our chest. So ishik, would you like to vibe or vent today?

Ishik  1:39  

I'm in a good mood. Listener, please hear me out. I'm gonna vibe about my relationship with my mom. So I am, like, very aware how many people Genevieve included, right? Don't have great relationships with their parents, right? It's not, it's not so uncommon. Plenty people do. But I just, I'm feeling a lot of gratitude for the relationship with my mom, specifically because I find it to be like a really balanced, healthy, positive relationship in my life, where I live halfway across the world, we talk, you know, about once a week or so we have developed a relationship as adults, right? Like, she's still my mother, I'm still her son. There are lines there, but we're also two adult people and help each other with struggles and support each other with our wins and whatever I just I just have a lot of gratitude for that. I don't take it for granted. I know how rare that can be to have both a parent who's in my life and who is supportive and loving, and it not be an unhealthy level of involvement with each other, right? That's just really special, and I just, I really value it a lot. So that's where I'm at. 

Genevieve  2:52  

No, I love your, I love your mom, too. I think she's really, yeah, a special person. Michelle, what do you have on your mind? Are you vibing or venting today,

Michelle Hy  3:01  

I'll vibe today, good vibes today, because, yeah, today's like the official start of my like, two week vacation off of work. Very excited. I always try to plan at least one big international solo trip each year. Always excited to see new places and meet new people, even if my social anxiety acts up and, you know, try good food, maybe try Okay, food, and be kind of out of the United States for two weeks is very nice, you know, not to romanticize a lot of these European countries, because they've got their own deal. But it'll be good to be away for a little bit.

Genevieve  3:35  

Yeah. I mean, we understand. I mean, I'm happy for you that you get to travel, and that you have that autonomy and the ability to I love solo travel so much.

Michelle Hy  3:45  

Yeah, and it helps to, like, be in these new places where if I mess up or do something embarrassing, I'm like, well, I'll be gone in a few days. I will literally be leaving the country, and you will never see me again. So yeah.

Genevieve  3:59  

Yeah, I love that. Well, I'm in a better mood now listening to both of y'all. I was gonna vent, I probably still will vent, because it still is relevant. 

Ishik  4:07  

Yeah, no. Our vibes weren't strong enough, Michelle.

Genevieve  4:11  

Yeah. I just was venting last night, and still some today, when people want you to give them energy and time and help for free. Basically, this dude messaged me a couple of days ago. He was a unicorn hunter who wanted to find out what, hey, you let me DM you stranger, and you tell me all of the ways I can do this in a good, quote unquote way, in an ethical, quote unquote way, right? Because I've watched your videos on it, your public, free education on it, and I didn't like your answer. So tell me other answers, right? So the entitlement, and I was like, Hey, listen, I get it, you know, I have endless empathy and compassion for people who are new, you know. And so my first response is always like, Hey, I'm happy to chat with you. More. Here's my calendar. I'm happy to help. But now he doubled down, and he was like, no, no, I don't want to pay for that. I rarely respond to that kind of thing. But I got a little heated. I told him, Look, if this is how you're coming to a stranger, like trying to get something you want, when I've clearly said how we can have the conversation then don't, please don't go find a third, like, it's, it's gonna be a transferable shittiness, you know?

Ishik  5:28  

And I think the part that, like having seen the message that was so super frustrating about it, was that starting off by saying, like, I respect you and I respect your work, but then, like, the actual things he was saying were not respectful. 

Genevieve  5:41  

Yeah, be mean if you want to be mean. Don't like, you know, act like you're being diplomatic, because you're saying mean things, but you you're doing this performative rationality. So think that's the first time in a long time I've been angry in a DM, which actually was kind of, I was kind of vibing with that. I was like, I'm working on I'm being angrier more where it is warranted. So anyway, that is a meandering mix of vibes and vents. 

Ishik  6:10  

But anyway, I think it would be a wonderful time to learn a little bit more about Michelle. Michelle, if we could just start off. I think it's always good for listeners to get a sense of like, what your non monogamy looks like, right? Like, what relationships are you currently in? What are the structure of those relationships look like? Anything like that? 

Michelle Hy  6:30  

Yeah, yeah. So I started being actively non monogamous in about 2012 it's wild to think that that's 12 years ago, but yeah. So that started off like, oh, I have a primary partner that I spend most of my time with and live with, and then there are other people, you know, around that relationship. And over time, I realized that, oh, I that actually isn't what I want. And, you know, learning about all these different things, about hierarchy and and things like that, and also kind of growing to hate that partner that I started with, yeah, at the end of the relationship, moved out, and it was like that post breakup, like I'm focusing on me. I'm gonna focus on discovering what I want outside of the context of this like couple unit, especially since that first relationship lasted about five years. I guess that thing with solo polyamory that often people say are, we are our own primary partner. I don't think I always resonate with that, but I think especially at the time, yeah, so now there's about like seven ish people I would consider like partners, regardless of how often we see one another. So there's my longest term partner I've been with about eight years, like last year, last month, we just celebrated eight years together. I probably see him most often, and then two partners that has been going on for about seven years. So that's like a kind of open triad, and those three people are, in a way, a core, um, not necessarily that they're, like, more important, or that, you know, I prioritize them, you know, over anyone else, but because they've just been here the longest, and they were also around, you know, when I was with my first partner, and so, like, they know, they know what that was like. And they've stuck around, which is amazing. And outside of that three or four that I have, like, a more of a romantic connection with that, I tend to see people anywhere from like one to three times a month. And there's some connections where we probably, on average, see each other like once every other month, just because of schedules. And so it is that mix of, like, very affectionate and sexual, and sometimes it's just like, platonic, like, Oh, we're just hanging out for a movie night. It's always tough. I feel like these days, when asked to kind of quantify, like, oh, how many partners you have, or whatever, because I think as the years go on, it's like, what is partner? What is like? Is it just people that I have sex with, or is it just people I don't know? Like, what are these criteria for partner? Person who I enjoy in my life that I want to continue having in my life, but it's a little long, so I just use partner. 

Genevieve  9:15  

I know you shared once that you went to the wedding of a partner. What was that like?

Michelle Hy  9:19  

Yeah, yeah. So this was two partners that we talked about earlier. They have been together for several years, so I started being friends with one partner, then their partner asked me out. So we started dating, and then the three of us just organically found ourselves just hanging out with one another a lot. We wouldn't call it like a triad or anything. I think we were very cautious about, you know, ruining a good thing. And even though we'd all had like, kind of these romantic experiences and like kind of sexual experiences all three of us, it wasn't until several years into all of that they were like, do you want to leave partners? Like, make it official? Like, just call each other partners. Yes. So yeah, it was these two they got married, and initially were just going to get the piece of paper, but the bride's mom kind of wanted a little ceremony. So it was two partners, me, the officiant, and the bride's parents. And yeah, that was also the first, my first time meeting her parents. But yeah, we, like, had a cute little ceremony in this, like, historic cemetery in Portland. It was very nice and small. It was very cute. The bride's mom had even made a cake that had like, these three little crows on it, and it was supposed to be the three of us. So sweet. That's adorable. Yeah, yeah. And I was the Girlfriend of Honor..

Genevieve  10:39  

Oh, I love that. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really beautiful, the organic way that that dynamic unfolded, and how nothing was rushed. It sounds like you just let the dynamic tell you how it was gonna look,

Michelle Hy  10:52  

Yeah. And I feel like I tried to do that with relationships in general. Part of it is because it's like, I don't know, what do I want? Like, I'm not sure you're this new person, and I don't really, you know, know what all your potentials are and what all my potentials are. And so I'm just very much like, you know, brain in open mode of just collecting a lot of information, and then from then, yeah, and we can build whatever together. And so I really enjoy doing that, yeah, you know.

Ishik  11:19  

So when we're talking about things like, you know, marriage and and relationships in non monogamy, I'm reminded that you had a little while back a post about kind of the difference between equality and equitability, and I'm wondering if you could kind of dive into how that sort of applies to your own relationships with your structures, especially when there are these external markers of hierarchy or preference or, you know, whatsoever, and when we're talking about these things, these concepts of equitability and equality, you know, kind of how you see the difference between these two things?

Michelle Hy  12:00  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there is this Yeah, conflation with the concept of equality and equitability, because everyone's needs are different and everyone's desires are different, and that should be embraced and like, for me, I don't want a nesting partner, I don't want to get married, I don't want to have kids like so I have different wants and needs than someone who, you know would want all of these things. And I tend to date people who have, you know, nesting partners, or who are married, and that works really well for me, because at least I know that a lot of the day to day needs of these partners can be met, and I don't feel like that has to solely rely on me, because I'm just kind of not built for that. So just because a partner is spending time with their partner every day, like it is technically unequal, you know, to the amount of time that I spend with these partners. But I know that basically, if I ever needed support, emotional or, you know, something more tangible, that you know, these partners would be there for me, people who are a couple and who are nesting. Yes, there is more of a chance for hierarchy and for inequity. But you know, hierarchy isn't necessarily about certain logistical things, not it's not just about that. It's about power, and it's about power differences. You know, who has power to influence themselves and other people, you know, who gets a say, who gets to choose? Are their choices versus just ultimatums all the time that it wouldn't be like, oh, you know, I have to prioritize time with my spouse, and I have to check in with my spouse to, you know, see if they're comfortable with it, you know, in order to, you know, then tend to your needs. It's like, No, we're seeing these different dynamics as different dynamics, and we're treating them differently because everyone has different needs, but it is equitable because it is what they need. Yeah, I feel like I said like, desired need, like, over and over again, but yeah, I think that's the important part of talking about hierarchy. 

Genevieve  14:00  

Yeah, getting your needs met is not the same thing as getting all the same stuff.

Michelle Hy  14:05  

Yeah? Because, right, exactly like, I don't want to, like, have partners. I love them dearly. I don't want to be around them every day, and they know that, and they love me for that. I love them for that. So yeah, on the outset, it can seem it can look unequal, and it probably is, like, technically, unequal, but that does not mean that people aren't getting their needs met.

Ishik  14:23  

I gotta ask. I am very intrigued, and I want to ask before I forget you were describing this relationship that you were in in your exploration of non monogamy and how you grew to hate that person. That's extremely intriguing. Can you tell us more about the Tea, yeah, what's the Tea, spill? The T man? Like, what? What happened? Like, why did you start to hate this person?

Michelle Hy  14:47  

I met this person when I was 18, and he was 32 all the red flags. He had a partner at the time, but didn't tell me about that. And because I was 18 and I just wanted, like, I think I literally had a. It was, like my first or second week of college, so I just felt very open to a lot of things. And like the thought of being pursued by an older man that was, like, very exciting to, like, 18 year old Michelle, his other girlfriend at the time was also 18 or 19. And like, later on in the relationship, once he had broken up with his other girlfriend, the new partner was also 18 or 19. I think it was only, it's only even the past like year or two that I've been comfortable placing the term, like grooming on on, like on all of this, and so all of these, all of these, like glaring red flags. But I was trying to be open. And I in my upbringing, I don't think I was taught what boundaries were, and if anything, I thought boundaries were, like, disrespectful to authority, being like the straight, a obedient kind of kid and living up to other people's expectations. So I, like, I really wanted to give this non monogamy thing a try. I was very excited about the idea of it, but it was, yeah, it was very difficult with this first relationship, and I found myself kind of going along with what he wanted and how he wanted to shape things, like he was like the, you know, I want to build my tribe, kind of attitude, and a lot of boundaries that I didn't know, that I had were violated over the years. And I think there was also the thing that happens where it's like, oh, Guy introduced his girlfriend to non monogamy. Suddenly the girl is very like, much more, quote, unquote successful with the non monogamy than he is. And, yeah, once we had finally moved in together about two ish years in, he actually wasn't as into non monogamy as I eventually became. And so like jealousy would come up, but he would not be accountable for that jealousy. It was very unclear how comfortable he was with information shared. I would share a little bit of information. If he said it was okay, he would be like, you're rubbing it in my face. And so it's just a lot of bad communication, a lot of learning. You know what boundaries are, what is reasonable? I finally broke up with him after I graduated college, got my first full time job, and at that point, had had a couple partners who it just was not as hard, you know, the the connection and the relationship part, and that it was a lot healthier. And yeah, there's so much more ease and so much more openness to play and less judgment and everything like that. So yeah, it's not a coincidence that finally, when I found some stability and had learned a lot about myself, that I was like, oh yeah, we should break up. That's the Reader's Digest version of why that first relationship was shitty.

Genevieve  17:46  

I relate so much and like to the feeling of being flattered, even of being younger and being like, Oh, I must be like, I thought of myself to be very mature for my age, you know. And I was like, oh, so of course, this older man is my peer, but then, like, you're saying in hindsight, like, oh, he doesn't have a chance with his peers because he's so bad at this right the minute that someone grows up a little bit, she's gonna be moving on. I get that. I'm really glad that you had that awakening and awareness, and I'm really sorry that that had to be your introduction to non monogamy. I know that some of your current partners were in your life at the same time as that first partner. Were any of them struggling to not say, Just dump him?

Michelle Hy  18:30  

I think so. Yeah. There was very much like, so, yeah, they, um, those three partners had at different times like, met this partner. It was one of those things where, even if I wasn't explicitly honest with myself about it, I knew to cordon off this partner, where it's like, you know, maybe bring him to birthdays or whatever, but I will compartmentalize the hell out of this relationship, and I will not talk about him during, you know, dates and things like that, like a part of my brain knew, and With the two other partners, like in that open triad, the last time that these two partners interacted with him was at like, a Halloween party at their house, like he had violated someone's boundaries. Like they like, yeah, the person was dressed up as a fidget spinner. He was being too fidgety without consent, like it was just not good. So that was the like, first and only time, they're like, Hey, he's not allowed at this house anymore, and we were in that breakup stage anyway. And I'm like, Well, this just kind of affirms everything. And so I know that these partners were very like him. And I've asked, I've asked them this over the years. I'm like, how was that not just completely off putting? They were just like, Yeah, you know, trying to be respectful of like, you know, we like you and we're respecting your choices, and so then we have to, you know, work on our own boundaries around around this. But yes, that relief when finally. They finally broke up with him, and they're like, Oh, thank goodness. And I'm I'm like, Thank goodness you all stuck around. Because, you know, if I were in that position, I I'm just so avoidant, I'd be like, Nope, this is too much potential for drama, and I just do not like that person, so I do not want to spend time around that person. So yeah, I'm very, I'm very grateful that they had the patience and the compassion to kind of be there through it all.

Ishik  20:24  

I mean, for what it's worth, they sound great because that I can only imagine how difficult that must have been. 

Michelle Hy  20:29  

They are great. Yeah, yeah, I love them.

Ishik  20:32  

I mean, I think just something I wanted to point out. I thought it was kind of interesting you were talking about, like the idea of boundaries when you were younger, and that you would defer to authorities when you were talking about him, right? So it's very apparent that at the time, you viewed him as another I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth. Do you feel like that's inaccurate?

Michelle Hy  20:52  

Oh, yeah, because also he was very, like, worldly, very well traveled, you know, the kind of person who's gone to, like, over 100 countries and so and also, like, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't, like, dumb, like, he was very smart, well, read it, kind of like Genevieve, like it kind of, I feel like parallels with that guy in the DMS, where it's like, he's saying a lot of terrible things, but he knows how to package it in kind of a more intelligent way, or A somewhat more diplomatic way, yeah, I saw him as an authority, because he just, oh, he just has experienced more of the world. And that's kind of part of the the charm of like the older guy, right? It's like this person who can kind of teach me and guide me into this wonderful world of all these sorts of things, like non monogamy. 

Ishik  21:39  

It for people who are 18 now, right? Who are maybe being pursued by some worldly, charming, 32 year old or whatever like is there something that you would want to say to them that you feel like would have been helpful for you back then to get to those conclusions sooner?

Michelle Hy  21:55  

I often think, oh, what would have changed Michelle's mind? You know, at that time, you know, what would Michelle have listened to when I told my mom about, you know, my new boyfriend, my first boyfriend ever. And I'm like, I'm the eldest, so this is the first time she's had to deal with this ever. She flipped out, you know, rightfully so, to a degree, like, oh yeah, your daughter is dating like, this older man. But it just it didn't click with me, because of how much she was, I think projecting a lot of things onto it as well. So whatever was valid got mixed up into a lot of like, oh, you know, you're just gonna drop out of school, and if you get hooked on drugs, or if you get pregnant or something like, I will kick you out of the house. So then, yeah, that, like, reinforced this. Like, Oh, I can't tell these other authority figures in my life, but to have had someone who would be able to listen, you know, without too much judgment, at least, like externally, I think, would have been very helpful. I think, you know, not going immediately to the like, oh, you should not do this. You cannot do this. My brain was like, Oh, I can't. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do it, you know, I'm not. I'm not just gonna be one of those people who, you know, I am more mature. I know what I'm doing. So I think just having someone there, I don't think, could have prevented me, like 100% you know, from this relationship, but I think it could have shortened it quite a bit. Yeah, yeah.

Genevieve  23:17  

I always wish that more people would ask questions of younger people or of newer people. Maybe there's not an age differential, but there's an experience differential. Just like, do you feel relaxed around this person? Do you ever doubt yourself? Do their words always match their actions? You know, just like letting someone go forward with some question marks that then the people who did that, and there was fewer and far between, but the people who did that, for me, I remembered that, and I was like, that's how I want to help other people. Is like, yeah, I don't know that. I mean, sometimes there's value in asserting something you know to be true. But I think when it comes to like, such a personal choice as to who you spend your time with. We We need to come to that on our own and hopefully with some thoughtful questions to ponder on because, yeah, otherwise you will want to rebel.

Ishik  24:17  

Season One is almost over. This is our last full episode, our last interview for season one. Thank you all so much for listening. We are already working on season two, but as a thank you for all of the excitement for this first season of the show, we are doing a bonus episode in two weeks. It's going to be a Q&A with us, where you get to ask us questions about us, about polyamory. If you want to submit questions for that, you can reach us by email at icouldneverpod@gmail.com, please make sure to keep your questions to just a few sentences and yeah, we'll get into them. The last day for submissions for that will be Thursday, October 3, 2024 so make sure to get in your questions by then. And thank you so much. Keep an eye out for that. In two weeks, we're excited to bring you the next season. Anyways, let's get back to the show.

Genevieve  25:13  

So your account is polyamorous, while Asian, you've talked a lot about your Chinese and Taiwanese background. I'd love to hear a bit more about how you see your heritage shaping and playing into your relationships with other people.

Michelle Hy  25:27  

The personal journey is very interesting. So like my dad's side, it's very much like that big family every time there's, like, even a little bit of an occasion like the whole family comes and all the cousins and things like that. And so they, yeah, they live, like, all kind of within like an hour of one another, and they have that, yeah, very tight knit, kind of multi generational household thing going on my mom's side are a bit more of that, like, these islands of kind of nuclear families. And so that's been, like, an interesting thing growing up in because I've mostly grown up around like my mom's side. And so there's this very interesting kind of parsing of, like, the, you know, not to oversimplify, like this, East Meets West, kind of, you know, these, these kind of cultural values. But I think my mom's side went more toward that individualistic route, and my dad's side stayed with, like, that family unit and the emphasis on community. And I'm still, I feel like I'm still trying to parse out, like, you know, where do the seeds come from for these different cultural outlooks? There's just a lot of disconnect, I think, in my upbringing and growing up in the Portland area, which is, like, just overwhelmingly white, you know, I would very often be like, one of, like, the few kids who are POC much less Asian. There's sometimes this notion of like, oh, you know what it would have been like to have grown up like a California Asian, or something like, where there are a lot of communities down there where to be Asian is to be in the majority. Like I grew up speaking like Mandarin. Once I started going to school, I think my parents started speaking in English a lot more. And so there's that disconnect with language, like I'm not personally fluent in Mandarin. Like I sound terrible when I try to speak. I can understand it if someone's talking to me, but yeah, I like, have lost a lot of the ability to speak it. Grieving is a bit too intense of a word. And so I think with the page like the polyamorous while Asian, it's also trying to, like, a exploration, or re exploration, of heritage, and, you know, trying to figure out what that means.

Ishik  27:38  

I related a lot with that idea of, like, losing your the language, I'm half Turkish, right? And I used to go to Turkey in the summers every summer my entire childhood. My Turkish was also terrible, but I can understand, right? And when you were speaking about it, I was feeling this like, welling up sadness, as you were describing and then you started to talk about, like it's not grieving. And I was like, you grieving. And I was like, yeah, no. So I really related. And so you know what you're touching on? I It's very real. And I think you're definitely grappling with something that's very relatable. In that regard, on your page, you have a lot of, you know, support and resources and stuff, not just about non monogamy and kind of its intersection with the Asian experience, but also with queerness in general. What I'm reminded of is, kind of, recently, I was playing D&D, and myself and another player who's who's gay, we're talking about gay shit, and one of the other players, he's Cuban, says, Yeah, but that's just white people shit. Now, ignoring that I'm half Turkish, and he's saying that to me, it was like it got under my skin. We kind of had a little bit of a conflict about it, because many of my partners have not been white, and that in queer connections, right? But that's all to say. You know, in your experience, has that ever been messaging for you that, like, non monogamy or queerness is not for Asian people, it's for white people or anything like that? Has that ever been something you've gotten?

Michelle Hy  29:16  

Um, yeah, so I'd say with my, like, non monogamy journey and my kind of queer journey, it's been a very focused on, like, oh, kind of like, what do I want and what do I don't want? Like, and especially, you know, in when I was, like, describing my that relationship with that first partner, and how the reaction to that created riffs with, like, my mom and my dad, I think I grew to detach my identity and value from what my family thought, sort of thing, and because of that, it's like, oh, well, I'm Asian and I'm polyamorous. Obviously, Asian people can be polyamorous and polyamorous people can be Asian. So it kind of wasn't until les. There that I thought of like, oh, is it even for Asian people or not? Because I was just doing it, but I think for a lot of people of color, especially like people who are descended from more like recent immigrants, often and, yeah, not to generalize too much, but there's often this idea to lay low and to not cause trouble, and to go with the flow of the status quo a bit more, so that you don't ruffle feathers, so that you don't cause trouble, you know, to yourself or to your family or your community at large. And so you know, something as still, as radical as non monogamy is can really ruffle feathers and can really rip people from their families and create that ostracization and and again, like this is felt like in general, like a lot of people who are non monogamous have that, that fear and that concern, that very real concern, especially if they're still, you know, either financially attached to family or, you know, logistically, you still live under the same roof and stuff like that. And I feel like that can be felt more doubly so for POC, you know, speaking from, you know, the more like the United States experience amongst just, like, an onslaught of just white supremacy all the time in subtle ways and blatant ways. So, yeah, yeah. Like, I again, like, I think that's why it's important to talk about, like, these different intersections of identity with non monogamy, because it's like, how can you not you know, like, this is very even in even in those, like, subtle ways, like, even those, like, little tiny, like, in and of itself, it's not a huge deal. But like, they all add up. And like, I always like to bring up, like, Kevin Patterson's love's not colorblind. You know what you're saying, like, the that's all white people shit. Or, like to paraphrase part of that, it's like, yeah, if you don't see yourself represented in these communities or in media or anything like that, you would be it would be reasonable to assume that it's just white people shit. But it's like, obviously not. I don't know just how much more fulfilling, and how much more welcoming things can be and more accessible things can feel when you see and hear and you know, experience just a wider diversity of people doing a thing. 

Genevieve  32:15  

Yeah, you know, you mentioned that there are large and small ways that you can sometimes feel alienated in spaces, especially growing up in and still living in a place where you said you're often the only one of the only people of color around. Would you be open to sharing a bit more about the types of things that make you feel maybe unwelcome or pushed away? 

Michelle Hy  32:38  

Yeah, like I, you know, I born and raised in this area, and so I do have a deep love for this city, even for all of its applause. But yeah, I would say that Portland is, you know, fairly progressive on a lot of things, you know, especially with regard to like LGBTQ representation and things like gender affirming healthcare and things like that. You know, access to abortion and whatnot, like and so with regard to, like, non monogamous and King community, like Portland has a relatively strong, you know, like, polyamorous King communities. So there's a lot of things going for it, with regard to sex positivity and acceptance of more fringe ways of relating. And this is just my experience as, just like this fair skinned East Asian person, which, like, there are these ramifications of this, you know, sometimes this proximity to whiteness and or this, like acceptability amongst white communities, this kind of less threatening vibe, like still a bit othered, But less threatening, right? And being very aware of that, personally, I have not experienced a lot of like, very blatant, you know, in your face racism. But I think that is the nature of a lot of racism in these spaces where it's unintentional or well meaning or microaggressive, these tiny little markers of like, otherness, an instance, in and of itself, is fine. And if anything, oftentimes I laugh about it because it is kind of funny saying, like, Oh, where are you from? Where's your family from? I'll say, like, Taiwan, you know, Taiwan, China. And then the person responds by, oh, there's this Thai place. I really like, like, at least like those. There's a lot of those. So that are, like, I guess, just kind of too silly and too funny to be offended by. But I don't know this, this idea that people don't know how to like react or act around you just because I look different, or yeah, there are a lot of cultural assumptions that are reinforced by media. And I think, yeah, just a lot of ignorance. There was a person who I was seeing, he brought up that Korea had recently finally banned the selling of dogs for dog meat. And it was, it was one of those. It was again, one of those things. I was like, yeah, the the conversation didn't go very much, like, further than that. But. But it just like, stuck in my head. I'm like, Why bring that up? Yeah, how much of this is, you know, you're just saying a thing, versus how much of this is, like, specifically because I'm Asian or something like that, where, and oftentimes with dating, it's like, are you pursuing me because you think I'm cute and charming or whatever, or are you pursuing me for a specific reason, with regard to, like, oh, an Asian person, yeah, and that sort of exoticization and fetishization, so, yeah, there's always that vigilant part the back of the brain that's like, the protectors, like, what is this person's motivations? And to be able to vet people, little vetting questions, like, one niche one, you know, if they're into Star Wars, asking them their opinion on, like, the last Jedi, very polarizing movie. It can be very telling about a person's, like, political views, how they react to that movie. So, so like, little things like that, yeah.

Ishik  35:53  

As long as we're on the topic, I want it to be clear, I think the last Jedi is the best of the three new Star Wars movies. Oh, absolutely. Listeners, fight me.

Genevieve  36:14  

So you were telling us before about how hard it was to tell your mom about that first boyfriend, like how poorly that went so I'm wondering, like, do they do they know that you're polyamorous? Do you talk to them about any of your current relationships ever?

Michelle Hy  36:27  

In general, I've come to have a sort of, don't ask, don't tell, relationship with my parents. I've thought about this a lot, and I don't think that at this time, it would produce more closeness. There would just be so much emotional labor and education to have to do of like, No, I'm not just cheating. No. This isn't just a phase that you like all of those like the FAQs. Just like, no, yes. Actually, with my dad, it's interesting because my sister outed me to my dad. It sounds bad, but I'm actually very grateful to my sister where the red table talk episode came up that I was on, like, a few years ago, when she watched it, and she was, like, so happy for me and very proud of me, and she had gone up to see our dad, and it just came up in conversation. It just, I think it was just something that was just something that was on her mind, and she was very excited about and she's like, Oh, Dad, look. And so she, like, pulled up the video and, like, showed our dad that little, like, five minute segment that I'm on. And so he watched it, and apparently, like, he had a very positive reaction to it. He was listening to what I was saying, and he was nodding along, like, oh yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. There's one point in which I talk about, like, the Don't Ask, Don't Tell, thing, I only, like, mentioned my mother in that like, oh, you know, with my mom, you know, don't ask, don't tell, blah, blah. And he goes like, See, she only mentioned your mom.

Genevieve  37:52  

Didn't mention me. I'm the cool one, right?

Michelle Hy  37:54  

Basically, that was his reaction to it. And I thought that was very funny. And so about a year ago, when he called me for my birthday, we're talking, he didn't name it specifically, but it was, like, this very interesting and kind of sweet talking around, you know, you do you, and I don't have to understand it, because, like, I'm, I'm this old guy, and, you know, these new generations always learn more and more, and like previous generations sometimes fall behind, and that's just what happens and so and that roundabout way, just being very supportive.

Genevieve  38:27  

I'm curious. You know you were talking about growing up straddling these worlds of this multi generational family model and then the more nuclear family model, does it feel like you are building something new that is a bit of a mix of the two, of like, living solo, being independent, but then also being more community minded. Is that how you view your approach?

Michelle Hy  38:50  

I think, I hope that I'm doing that right, like, you know, being in the midst of it, it's like, Oh, am I sometimes leaning too much into the individual aspect, because I contend to do that, that more that hyper individualism and that kind of more avoidance style of stuff, where it's like, Oh, if things are too overwhelming, I'll go deal with it by myself. Because, because a lot of it is like this trust aspect. It's like, Can I trust other people to rely on them? And I think very often we had this idea that like, Oh, your blood relatives are the people that you can, like, always rely on, but like many of us, know that that's not true, because, like, yeah, my my closest sister, who I mentioned earlier, who I dearly love, no contact with our mom. So it's, it's Yeah, so community, you know, talking about queerness as well as non monogamy, and how often we have, like, more chosen family and chosen community. But yeah, so my hope is that I am moving toward a place that is, like, respectful of my autonomy, kind of the the solo life, but also, you know, I can rely on other people, and people can consistently rely on me. So that is the goal. I don't know if I'm quite there yet, but it's definitely the work in progress, and that's, that's the goal.

Genevieve  40:00  

I relate to that a lot, and I imagine it's not linear, right? That sometimes there's a very open feeling season. Or with some people, there's that fluidity of like, Absolutely, I can easily trust you, so I've got your back, you know, so observing that there can be winds and feelings of being closed off at the same time and that you're not either community minded or individualistic, like we're all navigating this, you know, relationships to relationships, you know, yeah, yeah, exactly.

Ishik  40:29  

That's a sort of similar to what I was going to say as well. I think it's just it's hard in a certain fashion. I do think that being a more part of community is the easier, softer path in the long run, but in the short term, I will say, personally, for myself, that it can be tough. Partially, I think, because we are socialized to like, be so individualistic, it's like, harder to get started, because I have all this messaging of like, I have to take care of that for myself. Like I gotta, I gotta take care of my own shit. I gotta figure it out. You know, if I'm if I don't, then I'm a weak or a leech, or whatever. I think pushing past that, I just I also try, really like as much as I can, to be as active, be as much a part of community as possible.

Genevieve  41:11  

Yeah, I mean, it can be easy to get caught up. At least I can speak for myself, I get caught up in the theory and the big picture and all of that. And I was asking this, this woman, I was like, You know what? What is being community minded? Was that mean? And she was like, go talk to your neighbor, go make friends with the person next door. Like, it is that simple. And I felt like a like a little baby deer learning their legs. Like, I was like, How is how am I a grown woman who can do all of these things, and I feel so shy saying hi to my neighbor and making conversation and feeling like I'm wasting their time, and, you know, they wouldn't like me anyway, or whatever. But flash forward to a couple of years of that intentionality of like, literally, the people around us can we have each other's back like that, we've befriended neighbors and offered help to, like, do things around their place the and then also asked for help that, you know, being community is receiving to, you know, that there's giving and taking. And I think we literally went and asked for butter the other day. It was, I ran out of butter.

Ishik  42:16  

It was, it was, like, two weeks ago, and, yeah, we went across to these neighbors that were like, you know, we know, but we're not super close with it was so terrifying to go and ask for butter. I have not felt so like my chest was, like, It was humbling. It was, it was very humbling. It was very interesting. And And then afterwards, I felt so fucking guilty, like I took too much. I took too much. I took too much of their of their butter and like, they're judging me for how much butter I eat. God, they think I'm a piece of shit. Like, it was so funny, yes, much, yeah, that idea of trying to engage in community with our literal neighbors was so scary.

Genevieve  42:59  

But it also felt so actionable, like, okay, that that's a small thing I can do tomorrow. I don't have to be this organizer of some sort of rally of, you know, or, like, organize a rental tenant union or something, you know, it's like, that's where the brain wanted to go. Was what big action can be taken. And so, yeah, the more bite sized, starting small with, like, who's next to you and can Yeah, can you look out for each other and be looked out for?

Michelle Hy  43:25  

Yeah? I Yeah. Totally resonate with what you're saying was, like, it's the little things. It's how asking your neighbor for butter can be, sadly, like, a radical action, like, yeah. Like, hearing that, I'm like, Oh, could I ask any of my neighbors for butter like that would terrify me. Like, I live in like, an apartment building, so we're, like, all close together, like, you know, getting over, like, that social anxiety getting over, like, like, for me, a lot of there's a lot of, like, fear of rejection that underlies a lot of anxiety. So it's like, Oh, if my neighbor rejects me, and I have to, like, maybe pass them in the hallway or something, but what if they don't reject you, and then you pass a new friend and, like, an actual neighbor in the in the hallway. So, yeah, that that leap of faith, and I think even in, you know, like non monogamy, education and whatnot, where it's like, even, you know, changing someone's mind, even, like a tiny bit, or setting them on, like, a certain path, even just like a little bit, you know, like shifting, shifting the rudder, like just a couple degrees can make a huge difference. Yeah, it doesn't have to be these big things that look grand on social media like it's very often the things that we very much don't see that is, like, crucial and fundamental, foundational to the work. 

Ishik  44:35  

Yeah, I'm kind of, I'm being reminded of there was a post that Genevieve had, I don't know, maybe a month or two ago, something like that. It was the monogamy in this economy post, and people had a lot of thoughts and feelings and everything. And I just, of course, it's the internet. And I just sort of wanted to ask, like, in the from the perspective of somebody who is living solo, like travel solo, like. Likes your independence. You know, how does like finances and in coupling, in partnership kind of intersect with that? 

Michelle Hy  45:09  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, right? The, I will say the one thing that I do not like about solo polyamory is having to pay full rent like that sucks, and I am very grateful to be in a place where I can do that. But I will say, to be honest, just my finances, it's a little irresponsible, like I am, like, spending more of my paycheck on rent than is, I think, financially healthy and like, you know, in the long term. So it's like sad to have to think of like, I got to get a job with more money to, like, sustain this, you know, just so that I'm not eating up like, one full paycheck and then some on, like, rent and bills and so that is, like, the literal price I pay for the, like, living on my own thing for now. And it's like, you know, who, who knows what I'll want even five years from now. But like, at this point, it's been very important, and I love it. You know, it's like, Oh, if there are dishes in the sink, like, I got nobody to be mad at except for me and and I'm fine with that. But yeah, there, there is like, a degree of privilege to being able to, like, live in this, like, little studio apartment by myself. I've talked to a lot of people who wished they could be like that, more solo, polyamorous thing, but like, rent is just so freaking expensive that it's just not a viable thing. And so people are often forced into these situations that are less than ideal and maybe sometimes detrimental to certain relationships, because being alive is just so expensive now. And like bringing, you know, like capitalism into all of this that, like this is something that, like a high school teacher had said, he was probably paraphrasing from some somewhere else that, like, yeah, if companies could sell every individual a washer and dryer, like every man, woman and child, a washer and dryer, they would right. If, like, you could create community and then just turn that into just the nuclear family, and then just the individuals within those nuclear families like that would be their goal, maximize profits and to, you know, continue to keep us, you know, focused on having to work and pay bills and, you know, like what you were saying with, oh, yeah, like, I gotta take care of my own shit, of this idea of how much of our value is attached to, like, our productivity on our own and like to not be a burden. I mean, all of this rhetoric around how human beings are burdens on the state, you know, and like welfare state, and all of those things like, you know, the whole pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. You can't do that. You're a failure. I mean, like, yeah, Genevieve, I know you talk about, like, capitalism and relationships all the time. So, you know, I just very much preaching to the choir, but.

Ishik  47:42  

Preach girl, preach. Don't worry. Preach. 

Michelle Hy  47:45  

Yeah, it all comes back to capitalism.

Genevieve  47:52  

Thank you so much for joining us today. Michelle, I want to invite you to plug any of your work, your projects that you're excited about. Where can people find you online?

Michelle Hy  48:02  

Yeah, yeah. So I basically live on Instagram. I can't do multiple platforms, so yeah, I'm on Instagram at polyamorous, while Asian. I don't post consistently, but I Yeah, whenever, whenever the mood strikes, whenever the discourse strikes, I'll, you know, post about something, but yeah, that's where people can find me, and that's where people can connect with me. I connect with me. I also try to, like, if I post something to the feed, I'll also post it to my website. Polyamorous asian.com so you don't have to just live on Instagram like I do. But yeah, that's where people can find me. I'm always happy to chat with people in good faith, you know, like I was talking about earlier. Love to talk to other polyamorous people. You know, even if you feel that polyamory isn't ultimately for you, it's like, still love talking about relationships and nerding about nerding out about relationships, and so yeah, that's that's where you can find me.

Ishik  48:48  

And if you're looking for more polyamory content beyond Michelle's wonderful page, Genevieve is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory. We've also recently launched her YouTube channel where she discusses representations of non monogamy in film, TV and other media.

Genevieve  49:06  

So you can support these projects directly, if you'd like, on patreon.com/show, polyamory, where you would get early access to videos, private stories, live Q and A's bonus stuff. I also offer one on one support so flavors for all sorts of folks.

Ishik  49:21  

Yeah, and as always, just a reminder that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it.