Genevieve  0:00  

Welcome to I Could Never… a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from Chill Polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, ishik.

Ishik  0:18  

Yeah, just your classic boy next door. I'm yours. How's it going? But today I am super excited to welcome, also, Kevin Patterson. He is an author, educator and all around rad dad. He wrote love's not colorblind, confronting racism in non monogamous and kinky spaces. He's also the co author of the for hire series, science fiction about polyamorous as superheroes. Kevin, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Kevin Patterson  0:43  

Hey, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. 

Ishik  0:47  

Yeah, but before we can get into any of that, this interview feels a lot like if there was Ray y ain on your wedding day it's a free ride when it's already time to vibe or vent. 

Genevieve  1:05  

Wow, for anyone listening for the first time, we always like to start off the show with a little icebreaker called vibe or vent, where we'll each take a beat to share a bit about something that's either really making us happy recently or something that sucks, that we need to get off our chest. So ishik, would you like to start us off? No, oh, you want me to you want me to start off? Okay? I mean, it's weird because I'm in a good mood today, but I think I'm gonna vent about insomnia. I got 90 minutes of sleep last night, so if I am speaking slowly or seem a little out of it at any point. That's probably why. But it's strange because I also am in a good mood. I saw some friends. I've had good food and drink today, like it's a medley in the mix. No, it can only be. I can only be upset or upset Or happy. Pick one. There's only a binary. Okay. Anyway, so, but yeah, I think I'm venting a little bit about being out of control of what our bodies choose to do and their rhythms fluctuating anyway. But I'd love to ask you, Kevin, do you feel like you're vibing or venting today?

Kevin Patterson  2:15  

I'm definitely vibing back in August, after like a pandemic of feeling pretty depressed and pretty burnt out, my creativity just sort of came back. I've written three superhero novels, the for hire series, all three with my co writer Alana. And over the course of, like, from April or sorry, from August to December, I wrote a whole other book. I think it's gonna end up being the best one of the series, Alana took a step back to editing this one instead of co authoring. I think it makes the other three books better. And I've been on a roll. And once I'm done, I'm actually ready to jump into the fifth book in the series. It's been moving pretty fast. So, like, entirely my vibe since August. 

Genevieve  2:58  

Yeah, it's the flip side of like, writer's block or feeling like procrastinating, is when you get on that roll and you're just inspired and go, go, go. Yeah, it's cool that it's lasted for so long. 

Kevin Patterson  3:07  

Yeah. I mean, it's, it's to the point where I actually have to buckle down and finish the book, because every once in a while, it's like, wait a minute, I've got a whole other story idea, and then I start writing that one. So this little superhero universe that we put together back in 2018 is going to be a lot fuller by the end of 2025.

Ishik  3:25  

Well, looking forward to it. Hey, that was my life. You don't get to say that. Now. I'm venting about that.

Genevieve  3:33  

Are you vibing or venting? 

Ishik  3:34  

I'm actually also vibing, and I kind of almost feel like it's somewhere in between the two of you, right? Like you were talking about something that felt like really out of control in a negative way. You were, Kevin, you were kind of sharing about something that's not necessarily out of control, but like, sort of was happening to you.

Kevin Patterson  3:51  

It’s sort of an inspiration wave and it’s out of control. I accept that.

Ishik  3:54  

But in a good way, right? And so for me, I feel like what I'm actually vibing about is being more intentional about, kind of, like, structuring my energy and work time over the next couple of months. We recently, just like, kind of worked up a whole production schedule for a bunch of the work that's going to be happening over the next few months, with the podcast and with videos and stuff like that. And it really helps, honestly, go shocker. Scheduling helps with time management in polyamory, I know it's crazy, but for my adds. Like, you know, I always dance on the edge of like, needing the intensity of like, like, Oh my god. The deadline is two minutes from now. I have to get this done right now. Genevieve knows that very well, and it's not always great. And so it feels really nice when I actually do have, like, a runway to look at, and then can feel, yeah, like I'm like, checking things off the list. Like, again, I'm not saying something revolutionary. I think a lot of people have this experience as, like, a very natural part of their lives, but just getting to enjoy some of that. For once, you know still feels good. Anyways, let's move past that. Kevin, we we like to get started with our guests by getting a sense of the shape of their non monogamy. So can you tell us a bit about the relationships that are close to you at the moment? 

Kevin Patterson  5:18  

Right now, I've been with my wife. We've been married 17 years. We're going into 18 years. We've been together a little over 20 years. It's been great. We've got a couple of great kids. I've got three local partners that I see on a regular basis, and those relationships have lasted five, six and seven years. So those have been going pretty strong and and then I also have, like, several comment relationships, people who, when I was doing more book tour, speaking engagement stuff, there are people who I'd only get to see two, three times a year at one conference or another. And those are still people who are, like, very close and very dear to me. We still talk all the time. 

Genevieve  5:57  

That's awesome. You mentioned that you've been with your wife for over 20 years. Have you been non monogamous the whole time, or has there been a change?

Kevin Patterson  6:04  

Just about the whole time, like in the first few months of our relationship, a relationship that I assumed would have been monogamous, we ended up finding ourselves in a threesome that, uh, that changed our perspective on how much exclusivity did or didn't matter to us, and what I expected was for it to, like, destroy the relationship, because that's all the representation that I've ever gotten, that, like, if you do anything that's a little bit, you know, not monocentric, not heteronormative, that everything goes to the wayside. That wasn't our experience. So once we got into this situation where we were no longer strictly tied to monogamy. We were like, well, well, what else is fake? You know, what other? What other? Whatever messages have we gotten by way of pop culture or modeling from our parents or, you know, what else doesn't apply to us? And it ended up letting us sort of redraw our relationships more around our own needs and around sort of societal expectation, at which point I started reading all the books, listening to all the podcasts, and like trying my best to avoid rookie mistakes, which didn't always work out so great.

Genevieve  7:11  

What were some of the rookie mistakes? If you remember?

Kevin Patterson  7:16  

Really early on, I ended up hooking up with a friend, and it was a friend that my wife and I both knew from college, and my friend immediately was like, I've just ruined your relationship. Oh my god, what have I done wrong? Please don't tell your wife. And you know, she was my girlfriend at the time, and she starts crying and, you know, and I made the decision, the bad decision, to to not say anything. And that only lasted, like, maybe a week or two. I don't remember how much time, but it wasn't a lot of time. And eventually I told my wife, like, hey, look, when I was when I took that trip and I saw that friend, this is a hookup that happened. And my wife was like, Yeah, I figured that was a hookup that was gonna happen. And I thought it was weird when you came home without a story. Thankfully, things were able to sort out. I got called that friend, and I said, Hey, look, I know I told you I wasn't going to talk, you know, I wasn't going to reveal this secret, but it never should have been a secret in the first place. It was one of my first lessons that just being honest and respectful and forthright with your communication is going to solve the problem, even if the solution is, y'all can't be together anymore. You know, just being honest you're going to get a better outcome, you don't have to sit around holding on the lies that you've got to figure out ways to retell and reshape depending on the situation. Honesty. Honesty comes in one flavor, and if you use that, the problem sorts out faster than otherwise.

Genevieve  8:34  

Yeah, yeah. I think it can be really helpful to hear people who've been successfully doing polyamory for so long also talk about the times that they've struggled or mistakes that they've made. You know, I think it can really demystify, you know, the whole like, how do we do this thing and enjoy it? Were there any struggles for you along the way that come to mind, you know, struggles that I think might be common pitfalls for anyone?

Kevin Patterson  8:58  

We had a lot of ideas. We had a lot of high minded ideas, and a lot of people do, and you see him get burnt out in comment sections of message boards. They're like, this is how it's gonna work. This how it's gonna function. And then they meet real people and realize that, like all of those rules go out the door when you're actually having to deal with human beings. A thing that popped up a bunch on my wife's end was he would say something like, All right, well, I only want to go out at certain times. If we've got a couple of kids only when the kids are in bed, then we can go out and do other things. And I'd be like, okay, cool, cool, cool. And I didn't have any partners at the time, sure. And then one day it would be like, All right, well, my date starts a little earlier than that, so I'm going to leave a little bit early. Do you mind making sure the kids get to bed and the kids are taken care of? Yeah, sure. And then it would be like, All right, well, my date actually, we're going to a movie. There's an event. It's timed. Would you mind if I just didn't come home from work tonight and went straight onto my date and I'd be like, Yeah, sure. You know, no big deal. I got it covered, and then I would want to do that. Right? And my wife would be like, but we had a deal, you know, we, we, we made an agreement that we were waiting until the kids go to bed and be like, okay, but you've been breaking that agreement for six months. Can we? Can we talk over how necessary this agreement even is? And you know how we can both let our relationships do their thing. Is this rule even necessary, you know? And there were a bunch of things that my wife would come up with at the time, because, like to protect her, her mental health, to protect her well being, to protect whatever she needed to protect, and then she would be the one to violate it for several months. And because I didn't have anyone in my life that was that serious, I didn't care. But then when I did have somebody who I had to make those same choices with, all of a sudden, it would come into question, and my wife and I would have to have a long conversation about that.

Ishik  10:49  

Yeah, for people who have that happening, you being on the end as the one who was like, very okay with the with The rule getting bended, but then being kind of blindsided by there not being that same bending for you. How did you find it best to, like challenge that? Because I think it's a pretty hard for thing for some people to challenge.

Kevin Patterson  11:13  

Yeah, definitely. Because, like, a lot of it does feel like a me versus them sort of thing, and just making sure that you don't approach it as me versus them and more like us versus the problem. That was always really useful. And then the mantra that I would always use, and it was something I'd use all the time, and it's something I don't, thankfully I don't have to use as much, was, this isn't about me, because there would be times, you know, where, you know, maybe my wife is caught up in NRE and she's feeling some sort, you know, and she's, you know, overly investing in somebody and, like, being a little bit lax about what's going on at home. Well, this isn't about me. She's going through her own thing. We can have a conversation about it. We I could tell her how I feel, but she's not doing this to me. She's just, you know, excited about something new that does come into her life. She's excited about someone new, and just knowing not to take it personally and approaching it in a non accusatory way, like, hey, like, this is a thing that's happening. This is the impact of the thing that's happening. I'm not telling you to not you know, be interested in whoever you're interested in, but also understand that other things are going on around you approaching it that way went a lot further. Like I've seen people getting really uppity about making it a personal problem, and sometimes, sometimes it does need to be approached that way, but other times it's like they're not trying to harm you, like you and your partner have conflict, but not because they're specifically trying to harm you. Like just approaching it that way was really useful.

Ishik  12:39  

I wanted to just get a quick follow up. You mentioned NRE, for any listeners who aren't familiar with the term, can you explain what that is? 

Kevin Patterson  12:47  

Yeah, NRE as in new relationship energy, the honeymoon phase, you know, that time when you're all glowy and happy and buzzy about being with somebody brand new. And sometimes you can get caught up in that energy. Like, I love that energy. You know, some people get really broken up about it and hate it, but I actually love it. Like I love walking around and singing and thinking about the person that I'm all charged up over. That doesn't work for everybody. Sometimes that energy can become chaotic to the point where it's destabilizing to the other people who are already in your life.

Genevieve  13:18  

Yeah, I think so. If somebody wants to have a conversation, let's say they're in that position. They want to have a conversation, not a conflict. What does that conversation look like if you're feeling slighted while they're swooning on someone else?

Kevin Patterson  13:32  

I mean, sometimes it's just saying it out loud, like I see that you're really into this person, and I, you know, and I like it, and I appreciate it, but at the same time that's impacting me in this particular way. Whatever you decide to do is whatever you decide to do, but understand that that's where I'm at right now, you know, in a way that doesn't restrict your partner's autonomy, just letting them know, like, Hey, I am in a place where this is this is impacting me, and then whatever they do, that's the information that you get. Like, if they decide, like, Okay, now that you've told me this, I'm going to tell you to fuck off. That's information that you can use if they hear you and they're like, Oh, well, I didn't realize it was impacting you this way. I can, you know, I can make some tweaks to the way I'm relating to this person so that I'm not losing you at the same time. That's information you get that tells you about the kind of effort that kind of tells you about the kind of commitment that you got with this person, or it might tell you that you don't have those things, and then it might be time to move on. But just, I'm not big into throwing around a lot of blame if it can be avoided. I'm not big into like, making heroes and villains out of out of every relationship. Like, yeah, sometimes that shit really does exist. Sometimes people are just really terrible and or really terrible to you, or just really terrible for you. That's just not really my go to as to well, this person isn't suiting my knees, so they're wrong or evil or being intentionally cruel to me. You know, I don't really like doing it that way.

Genevieve  14:58  

Yeah, you know. So. It's, it's interesting. I'd love to learn a little bit more. You know, bringing it back to your relationships, I was thinking about, so we talked about all of your present day connections. Sometimes people ask, like, how does it literally work? Like, what's a week to week? Like, so having multiple long term relationships, a wife and kids. Like, for people who can't imagine the dailyness of that, can you, can you give us a picture of like, what, what your routine on an average month is?

Kevin Patterson  15:32  

It runs pretty much like a well oiled machine most of the time. My three local partners, like, basically, they each have a day. We alternate between whether they come to see me at my home, where I go to see them at theirs. My wife has her own partners. And you know, if someone wants to go out, someone stays home with the kids, and you try to be like, you know, active with the kids. And then if somebody's coming over, here's a time there's, you know, like, after six, after seven, after eight o'clock, someone will come over. We'll have our date night, or I'll go out somewhere, and I'll have my date night. And it's really a matter of, like, who gets to the calendar first? Like, if somebody's like, hey, cat, I'm going to a thing on Saturday, you want to come? I look at the calendar. If my wife's got something going on, sorry, I can't make it, or I've got to arrange childcare. Usually it's I can't make it because I don't feel like arranging childcare, you know. But even the partners that I don't get to see on a regular basis, like we we chat, we text, the magic of modern technology. Like when my when my mom and dad went to work, they would just go all day without hearing from each other, you know, whereas now I hear from my partners all the time. Like, over the course of this conversation, I've had several text messages that I'm gonna have to respond to when we're when we're done here, and that's okay, because it means that I don't have to spend, you know, seven days a week, 40 hours, you know, 40 hour weeks with each partner in order to maintain a connection, we can just send memes to each other all day until it's time to, like, speak on something a little bit more. 

Genevieve  16:57  

Since you started out with your wife being a girlfriend, I'm assuming there was a lot of conversation about, are we getting married? A lot of conversation leading up to having kids. Were you with other partners during those changes in your life, and how did that play out for you at the time of making the choice?

Kevin Patterson  17:15  

I was with other partners. But all of it was casual to the point of take it or leave it like we get along. We can go out, we can have a good time. But they weren't looking for anything serious, and I wasn't expecting anything serious either. And it was good while it was good, but at some point I got really tired of hearing this is great, but I need to find a single, monogamous version of you, and that's when I started really focusing on, like, people who were just good, letting the relationship be whatever it was without, like, well, this isn't monogamous enough for the long term, or this isn't, you know, heterosexual enough for the long term, or whatever it was, whatever the problem was. All of that went away when I started being more intentional with with who I was with, and as a result, like it changed the dynamic of who I was dating. It changed the dynamic of who I was looking for. Just yeah, no, no more noobs. Not that there's anything wrong with noobs, but I couldn't do that anymore, because it was damaging for my own self esteem, for my own mental health.

Genevieve  18:16  

With, uh, with adding more, longer term partners over time. Sometimes people will say, especially if, like, a second partner already, you had a spouse, so they accept that. But then a new partner comes in, and they'll feel stress in terms of developing additional relationships over time. Was there ever you said a well oiled machine? Was there ever, like stress of of the calendar, of what will it look like now, or of the change of it?

Kevin Patterson  18:46  

Yeah, yeah. We're actually, we're actually dealing with that now. One of my partners recently had a child, and so now we're trying to rebalance what that looks like like. They're no longer able to come see me on on our days, you know. So now I'm going to see them and, you know, our relationship looks different because, like they're a new mom, there's always going to be some level of growing pains, you know, just, you know, rebalancing. I think it's just a matter of understanding that there's going to be some rebalancing and approaching it in a way that's not creating like, you know, heroes and villains out of it. 

Genevieve  19:35  

So with so much time under your belt and having published a book about non monogamy, I'm guessing you're pretty out to everyone about polyamory. Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Patterson  19:43  

Like the most closeted I am, which is not very closeted at all, is, is my co workers. If someone's like, Hey, Kev, what you do this weekend? Oh, I was hanging out with my girlfriend this weekend. Hey, Kev, what you doing this weekend? I was hanging out with my wife this weekend. And if someone catches on that, I've said two different names, we get. Have that conversation, but I don't really volunteer a whole lot of my life satisfaction to the place where I get my job satisfaction.

Ishik  20:07  

Yeah, it's one of those things. It's like, if they want to know more, they'll ask, yeah, yeah, you know, no hard feelings. Well, was that so being like, as open as you are now, aside from at your job, was that the case before publishing? Or were there any people in your life that were, like, surprised to learn about your non monogamy, from publishing?

Kevin Patterson  20:26  

No, no. There was a point where there was a point where my wife and I were going to two different polyamory meetups in a day. It was like a Saturday, there was like a black and polyamory meetup at one side of Philadelphia, and then later in the day, there was, like, a different meetup somewhere else on the other side of Philadelphia. And about halfway in between those we're stopping for lunch, and we're like, we're going to two polyamory meetups in a day here. We should probably just be out about this. And then we like over lunch, we both went on to Facebook, and we both like listed ourselves as whatever passed forward, non monogamous, as Facebook official at the time, we just went ahead and did that, you know, our close friends already knew, but we decided to make it like anonymous, go of it. And that was, that was like a decade ago, and years before publishing the book.

Ishik  21:13  

Was that also when your family found out about your non monogamy, you know, How was that received by them? 

Kevin Patterson  21:19  

My parents, my parents weren't, weren't into it. Point blank, my mom is an academic, and so I tried to approach her in an academic way, like when I explained, you know, hey, this is what my life looks like, Mom. I made sure I brought, like, books and Ted Talks and articles and, you know, and my mom was not happy to have her own methods turned against her in any way, shape, form or fashion. She wasn't, she wasn't here for it. There was a point where my mom would send me articles like, you know, couple has threesome ends in murder, and she's like, see, Kevin, you don't want to get murdered, Kevin, you better knock it off, you know. And my dad didn't. I don't think my dad cared one way or the other but he's not exactly the voice of that relationship, so he wasn't going to contradict my mom about it. Sure, it took a long time for them to just understand, okay, Kevin's doing his own weird thing, and we're just going to have to be accepting of it, or we lose a son. It took them a while to get to that point, whereas, like my in laws, my wife's parents. They were all like, well, as long as y'all agree to it, as long as she gets to do the same thing you're doing, Kevin, and as long as y'all don't, you know, ruin my grandbabies, we're fine. And that's been their take the whole time. Like, that's the take that I wish I had gotten from my parents, you know. So after an amount of time where I was, like, really low contact with my folks. We started talking again, and I sat them down and said, like, hey, look, this is what my life is like. This is what it's going to be like. It's been this way for long enough that you all have had time to get used to it. So this is where we are now, and it's not like a frequent topic of conversation, but when it comes up, my mom doesn't like turn up her nose anymore when, when I mentioned I've got other people in my life that that I'm not married to, you know? So it was just time. It was time and and walking away for an amount of time.

Genevieve  23:10  

And once it's the new normal, right? It's, it's, there's a acceptance, that it's not a phase, I guess, or that it's not volatile. It's like, oh, this is actually stable? Yeah, so I guess I'm not going to complain. Yeah, exactly one. One question that I get a lot is, when people are parents, when people have kids, they're out about their non monogamy, publicly. But then there's still this question of, like, how and what to share with the kids, what's age appropriate, and all of that. What has your experience been, if you are open with your kids, how has that been navigated? 

Kevin Patterson  23:44  

Well, I mean, we were, we were non monogamous before we had kids, so it didn't make any sense to try to, like, hide these additional humans who, at that point, became like more and more important part of our, you know, important parts of our lives, like when we first started having kids, the people in our lives weren't like Central, essential pieces of our lives, but that changed after we had kids, and so it made less and less sense to hide our kids or hide our people from our kids year after year. So it just became their normal. Somebody put a did a spotlight on the poly role models blog, and I was really excited about it. And my older kid, my son, was like, Okay, but why, like, why are you in a newspaper? Why? What are you doing that anybody cares about dad? And I was like, Oh, well, you know, our family's a little different. This is the way our family is different. And somebody thought that was noteworthy enough to write about. And my kid was like, All right, cool. I love our family. And then went back to playing. They couldn't have been more than, like, four years old. That ended up being the whole conversation.

Ishik  24:50  

I would love to ask, because I have no experience as a parent, right? And I do know that there's kind of this, like, I don't know meme, or whatever you want to call it about. Like parents talking and stuff, right? Have you ever had, like, any kind of negative interaction with another parent, like set of parents at, like a school thing or whatever, where they throw shade or something like that, about what they might know or perceive or whatever, any anything like that, ever or not. 

Kevin Patterson  25:17  

Only once, only once. One of my one of my kids was struggling with some personal issues, and my cousin's wife rest in peace. My cousin said something to the effect of, well, do you think your kid is struggling with this, with these personal problems, because you're now monogamous and like, it was something like, very completely unrelated, our non monogamy and our kids struggles, and it was coming from someone who was sort of built for conflict. So I was like, so diplomatic, yeah, like, so I was like, You know what? It isn't actually has nothing to do with that. And I let it roll off, because I wasn't going to start a fight with someone who was going to be determined to misunderstand me. 

Genevieve  26:00  

I think that's so important. Like, if you can already tell somebody doesn't want to understand, like, if they're not curious, they've already decided, then that's a waste of energy, yeah?

Kevin Patterson  26:09  

Like, I'm not gonna sit here and have a bad faith conversation with you in front of my kids. No, we're good. Like, I love myself too much for that. Yeah, yeah.

Genevieve  26:19  

I mean, so you got that, you know, one example of the question around the age of four, as your kids started getting older, did you get like different questions or more specific questions as they grew up and understood the world a bit differently?

Ishik  26:33  

Yeah, did you have to have like a birds and the bees? But polyamorous, polyamorous, birds and bees? Birds, bees and frogs,

Kevin Patterson  26:42  

Thankfully. Thankfully, the kids understood pretty well. Like I said, it was, it was their normal. They got used to seeing other people around the house. Were always really age appropriate. At first. It was, they were young enough to, sort of like, corner our partners, to like to get them to get snacks when, when we weren't around, you know, they might corner someone for, like, an invite to a tea party, but now my kids are older. Now they're they're teens and tweens, so they can't be bothered with what their parents are up to. They've got their own social lives going. They're doing their own thing. They still have, like, love and respect for our other people, like they they get that part of it, but they're not interested. They don't care.

Genevieve  27:20  

With your other long term relationships, was there ever sort of a discussion of, like somebody wanting to also be a co parent? I know people do that sometimes, or was it always just you and your wife as the as the parents? Really?

Kevin Patterson  27:34  

There was at least one point where one of my partners sort of wanted to step into the role of being sort of like a bonus parent to my kids, and it was okay until the relationship turned south. And once the relationship turned south, like I did, try to make concessions, like maybe we could find a way where you could still interact with the kids, but, you know, but not in the same way with me, or like we could find ways, like it was right before our kids got their own cell phones. So, like, had the breakup happened a few months later, I would have been like, hey, look, if y'all want to text each other back and forth, you could do that, but just keep me out of it. But ultimately, that relationship went too sour, too fast and too negative of a way that it would have been feasible to, like, maintain a relationship between my ex and my kids, the kids eventually got over it. It was years ago, and kids are resilient, especially at that age. But it also changed the way that it changed the way that we sort of let people around the kids. We became sort of less receptive to bonus parents and more just bonus adults, if that makes any sense, like you can be somebody who's responsible enough that our kids can look to you for help, but there's only going to be two people making the decisions here. 

Ishik  28:50  

People get real pearl clutching about the whole kids thing, right? And that's just like, real common sense, real basic like that. What you just said there, like.

Kevin Patterson  29:02  

Yeah, I mean, the only reason people get real pearl clutchy about the kid is because they're looking to be real pearl clutchy about any part of it. I've got a, I've got a, I don't like calling it a man cave, but I got a nice little setup in my basement, you know. And at some point my dad came over and he was like, you can't just have a room to yourself, Kevin. And I was like, maybe you can, you know, I can. And if you can't have that room to yourself, and that's something you want, that's a conversation you can have with my mom. But you're not gonna, you're not gonna come here and be like, Hey, this is unreasonable. If that's something that my wife and I have decided are reasonable. Sometimes people look at polyamory the same way. They're like, well, that's not something I can do with my relationship. That's not something I can do with my husband, my spouse, my wife, my partner, whatever it is. And they're like, Well, you shouldn't be doing that. And let me give you a list of reasons why. And kids feels like an irrefutable reason, like, Well, clearly this is something you shouldn't be doing, and that's the reason why I don't do it. Because I am a, you know, I'm a pillar of virtue.

Ishik  30:03  

Because you know that the people who are bitching on the internet are definitely that, yeah.

Kevin Patterson  30:07  

You know, and, and I don't, I don't really have the kind of time for that. I'm not hurting anybody, and I'm also not getting graded on this exam. 

Genevieve  30:14  

Yeah, it's something that I encounter is people sort of doing the perfect like clean room, hypothetical of imagining perfect child rearing and then criticizing every possibility that could go wrong. I posted recently a video about three people legally becoming parents of a child that they fought for all three to be on the birth certificate and so on, and mostly people were happy about the expansion of family is like, bonus bonus parents or bonus adults, like, the more the merrier. But there were some people that were like, This could be misused.

Kevin Patterson  30:53  

Or this, this could be damaging, a slippery slope. Yeah.

Ishik  30:55  

What was particularly frustrating about that example was like, it was just the most wholesome fucking story where, like, the woman literally, because it was, it was two women and a man, and like, the second mom literally induced lactation to be able to also breastfeed. It was a beautiful story. It was and they, like, had to fight in the courts and all this shit. It was great. They won. It was awesome. And like, for people's first thoughts to come in there and just be like, what about if a cult leader wanted to use this? And I'm like, bro, there are plenty of fucking laws that this. This something like fictional cult leader that you've created in your mind. Could use the idea that this is the first place your brain is going like you clearly just wanted to have a bad day today. Yeah, you clearly just wanted to be upset. 

Kevin Patterson  31:41  

Well, if you love them both, what happens if they're both hanging off of a cliff? Which one do you save?

Ishik  31:47  

What if you have a gun with only one bullish and a crazy person? 

Kevin Patterson  31:51  

What happens if they want to raise a kid with a with four pigs? You know? Are we gonna just let it happen?

Ishik  32:06  

You, I think, are possibly, for all of our guests thus far, have the longest experience with non monogamy. 

Kevin Patterson  32:17  

Oh, wow, yeah, grizzled old veteran of non monogamy.

Ishik  32:20  

Well, I mean, if the shoe fits man. But you know, I think what I would love to kind of get a sense of is not only your personal experience with non monogamy, but like being a part of the community in various ways over two decades. Do you feel like there have been any notable like developments or changes in, you know, behaviors or attitudes or perspectives, both like within the community and from without. Yeah, at that time?

Kevin Patterson  32:52  

Without a doubt, there's such a change in terms of autonomy and respect, where there was a time period where if you wanted respect in your relationship, like if you were in a polyamorous relationship, you were a third to a married couple, and if you wanted to be like respected, like a full partner, you would just have to go marry someone else and get your own third. You know, that was sort of the perspective of some of the books that I read early on. But that was a changing perspective, even then, where now everyone is sort of doing their own thing. And like, respect for autonomy, respect for freedom is, is one of the most paramount things. Just like, and also like respect communication, open, you know, emotional literacy, scheduling all that fun stuff, but just having respect for a partner who isn't like a living partner, who isn't like a nesting partner, who isn't a married partner, having respect for those partnerships, that's been a huge jump in the years that I've been doing this. And then, like, I like to take a little bit of credit as well, where, with love's not colorblind, there's a lot more open conversations about the way identity plays out in polyamory. Like there was definitely a period where all representation was a white guy, a probably heterosexual white guy with two bisexual white women, everyone's thin and educated and well to do, and able bodied, you know, traditionally attractive. And there was definitely a push to get away from that singular image of non monogamy. The dynamics are as diverse as humanity is and love's not colorblind, played into that pretty directly. I like that we're getting that representation now, and I'm glad to have played my part in that.

Ishik  34:37  

And speaking of you know, for any readers who haven't read the book or aren't necessarily familiar. Can you give a kind of a brief sense of some of the topics it covers and kind of how they're presented? 

Kevin Patterson  34:47  

Yeah, yeah. So with love’s not colorblind, like it's discussing the way white supremacy finds its way into polyamorous spaces, because it finds its way into every space, but particularly how it impacts polyamorous space. How it plays out in ways of tokenism, how it plays out in ways of othering and fetishization. It's all stuff that I've like have at least some amount of experience with. I tell a lot of people's stories in there because it's not just me, it's not just me, and I wanted people to feel not just heard but validated, because of that, like one of the most validating experiences of the process was hearing is not just me, like this issue that I'm dealing with is some is an issue that's, that's pretty widespread, you know, that's, uh, that's always been sort of the the path, yeah.

Genevieve  35:31  

I think it's so helpful to vocalize the sneaky ways that supremacy shows its head like that. Yeah. But it's heartening to hear that, you know, calling it out has in your experience seems to have an impact.

Kevin Patterson  35:42  

I can't speak for everyone's experience, which, you know, and I wouldn't, I wouldn't want to the Philadelphia community looks very different than it did. Some of the experiences that I brought up, like hurt, some feelings. Frankly, enough, I'd mentioned like, Hey, I felt this way at a party, and then someone who attended that party, or someone who hosted that party, people like, Well, fuck that guy, you know, and I get it like no one. No one wants to hear that that something they put together was a bad experience for somebody, but that's a lot less acceptable now. It's a lot less acceptable now where now it's more like, all right? Well, if someone had a bad experience, we're at least willing to listen about why that experience was bad and see if we can make something better the next time. Maybe the answer is, still fuck that guy, but it's fucked that guy after a conversation, and not fuck that guy because I feel embarrassed that my event was, was, was slandered, or what have you. You know, so just having, just having loves, not colorblind, sort of in the back pocket of organizers, has been useful in just having the conversation, and that's all I really wanted. Like, I'm not always expecting like problems to be solved, but at least problems can be discussed and worked around.

Ishik  36:49  

Do you feel like there would be anything you might change if you were to write the book now? Or do you feel like you had your point you just put a period on it?

Kevin Patterson  36:58  

I've considered, I've considered like revisiting love’s not colorblind. And what I realized is that, like every personal story in that book, every analogy that I use in that book, I could probably replace entirely. I can replace it with something that's happened in the years since the book is released. So, like a lot of it still exists from like a societal place, maybe less so from a polyamorous space, only because the book exists in that space, and some people have taken it to heart. The only reason why I probably wouldn't go back to love's not colorblind, to change anything, is because I haven't read the next one yet. You know, I haven't read the next one that like that that takes what I did and just eclipses it, and also, like I'm waiting for black women to replace it, because, frankly, it's the reason why I've never expanded past love's not colorblind. Like it was suggested to me that I turned it into life's not colorblind. And I'm, like, there are black women who have written better books that I am capable of already. So, you know, I'm good with love's not colorblind standing up until, like, gab Alexa or somebody writes a better version of it, because, like, that's coming. Or, you know, Michelle high, over at polyamory, and like, like, I don't know she's working on a better book, but she's got one in her. So, you know, who knows? 

Ishik  38:10  

Yeah, we had her on. She was our last guest on the first season. And I agree 100% she's got one.

Kevin Patterson  38:16  

It's in there. Word No, no. She's incredible. 

Ishik  38:19  

So we mentioned at the start. And I think, you know, some listeners who might be familiar with love’s not colorblind, might not be aware that you've also published a series of polyamorous superhero novels. And the most recently, I think, was for hires, Supercell, yeah. 2021 Yeah. Supercell, 2021 Yeah. And you're currently working on four and five, apparently. So I was one, I just kind of wanted to ask, like, was there something specific about superheroes that you felt was a story setting that was particularly suited to telling stories featuring non monogamy, or was it kind of the other way around, where there was just, you love superheroes, and you were gonna naturally include polyamory because as like A story element, because it is just a part of your life, part of your lived experience.

Kevin Patterson  39:05  

So I was writing love’s not colorblind, and I ended up watching the San Junipero episode of Black Mirror. And if you're unaware, Black Mirror is an anthology show. It's basically the twilight zone with technology. And San Junipero was a famous episode that won a bunch of awards because most of the episodes of Black Mirror are really mind bendy and to the point of mind fuckery, whereas San Junipero is actually really sweet and really queer and really endearing. It's a great episode. And so it gave me the idea of two young women who bond over their love of technology, and it turned into me writing a longer book, a book longer than love's not colorblind in like half the time. And when I showed it to Atlanta, Atlanta Phelan, she was like, this is garbage. Calf. This isn't readable as a book. And so. She jumped on as a co writer, and she helped me. She helped me, take me banging superhero action figures together and turn it into like actual readable prose.

Genevieve  40:09  

When you started writing the first one at the same time as writing love's not colorblind, with this being like a light hearted or an action sci fi story, and then the other book being quite, you know, heavy. What was that experience like of writing both at the same time?

Kevin Patterson  40:26  

I mean, I needed the break. I did the break like love's not colorblind. Brought up it brought up so many different stories of of hard times, like of racism, of white supremacy, just I needed a break to write something that was fun and for hire sort of became that. It became like the universe that I would live in, in my head when I was like, you know, waiting for the train, you know, it just became the thing that was going on in my head. It became fun to it became something fun to write about.

Genevieve  40:54  

Did those things feel tied as more than just like a fun escape? Did it also feel like, yeah, the themes that you were exploring in one could be explored in the other. 

Kevin Patterson  41:04  

Oh, yeah. Without a doubt. The the superhero universe that we do with for hire, it's based on the idea that superheroism is tied to social service as well. Like from the very first superhero in the universe, the city says, Wow, you have superpowers. Can you be our superhero? And he's like, sure, if you get these racist white cops off the streets, I can be part of what keeps your streets safe from that point forward, and it changes what society looks like from that point forward. So like, the superheroes are essentially, are essentially super cops in a world where cops aren't shitty and racist. 

Ishik  41:38  

Wow, this is a fantasy. 

Kevin Patterson  41:42  

Now, you know, and that is a world that could exist. That is a world that we have the resources to create, you know, like the whole egoistic altruism of it, like there is a world where no one has to starve and no one has to go homeless, that could exist, the resources for that exist. Let me write a story where that does exist. You know, I love sci fi, like, I'm a big Mass Effect guy. I'm, you know, like I'm a Star Wars guy. I enjoy Star Trek. All of these universes sort of theorize that we're in a world beyond oppression. Like Star Trek, in particular, it theorizes that we're in this world that's like, beyond, you know, homophobia, that's beyond white supremacy, that's beyond all that stuff. But it never tells you exactly how you get there, and it never explains why, like, at least for the first couple go rounds. Why? Like, if we're in a world past that, why are the protagonists still like, sis hat, white guys, you know, why can't the protagonist be everybody, if we're in a universe where everybody's accepted? And so I wanted to write to that effect as well, where the main characters, the main characters in the for hire universe, for three of the books are a pair of black women, and for the fourth book, it's a pair of black women, but one is a trans woman, one's one is an older hero who doesn't always, you know, that's not always something that, uh, that gets a lot of love people who have been like, added a while.

Ishik  43:10  

So when it comes to some of these identity markers, things like the gender and race of characters, or the fact that they're practicing polyamory, is this a world where these things just aren't really a big deal, or they're just not, you know, marginalized by society. 

Kevin Patterson  43:26  

Like, I wanted to write identities in a way where all of it's less of a big deal. None of it is no deal. Like, I didn't want to just be like, Okay, here's a utopia where identity is great, but I'm not going to delve deep into telling, like, really personal stories of oppression, because that's not what I want these books to be about. Like, one of the fun parts about doing operator was that there was a love triangle, and in every other story, the conflict is the existence of the love triangle. In operator, the conflict is that none of the three people can be 100% honest with each other about what's happening in that love triangle. Each of you know, like in the case of two of them, their secret identities are together, but their actual identities have to pretend they don't know each other. You know, that kind, that kind of thing, the conflict isn't that three people are into each other. You know, the conflict is that three people can't be honest about how into each other they are, or if they're, if they're honest, they might not be as into each other about what's happening. That's the conflict. I wanted to write it in a way where, like, Yeah, this is a this is a problem, but it's not, it's not a problem. In the same way, it's not a problem because it exists.

Ishik  44:33  

You know, I'm wondering so you were growing up and you're engaging with all of these, these stories, these narratives, you know, worlds that are more expansive than the one you were living in. And at this point, you've got a pretty cool life going on. You know, you you're writing novels about superheroes, you're polyamorous with a bunch of girlfriends and stuff. What would the young version of you? What would young Kevin think of your life today?

Kevin Patterson  45:02  

12 year old Kevin would probably be a little disappointed.

Ishik  45:09  

Why? Why do you say that? 

Kevin Patterson  45:11  

Because he didn't, he didn't know what he wanted. That's the long and short of it. Like 12 year old Kevin would be disappointed. You know, 20 year old Kevin wouldn't understand. But they were, they were young men who didn't know what they wanted. And that's that ends up being the case of a lot of us. A lot of us don't know what we want. A lot of us are, you know, it's whatever drives little boys to pull girls hair to say, I like you. You know, that's something that doesn't go away until you're like 25 like the maladjustment of not knowing what you want, and not knowing how to express what you want, that doesn't go away until you put a lot of effort into it. And 12 year old and 20 year old, Kevin hadn't put in the effort to figure out what he wanted and how he wanted to express it. Hell, I didn't. I didn't really hit my stride understanding the relationships I wanted to be in until I was like 30, you know, until I was already married, and then I was just sort of figuring it out.

Ishik  46:03  

I have an impulse to ask a very can opening question. I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold back. 

Kevin Patterson  46:07  

I'm excited. 

Ishik  46:09  

No, I'm gonna hold back. I'm not gonna do it. We have like, five minutes left. 

Kevin Patterson  46:15  

Are you sure? Because I'll be concise.

Genevieve  46:17  

You've piqued his interest. 

Ishik  46:20  

Okay, so I'm telling you, it’s very broad I'm opening up a fucking can. Okay, I think, I engage with a lot of content online about trying to engage on topics of masculinity with young men, okay, on that topic, like speaking to this idea of 20 year old Kevin and 12 year old Kevin and like as now the adults in the room who do know what they want. What angle do you feel like we can take as men in our 30s 40s, right? How do we communicate this to them in a way that makes it appealing, right? That doesn't make us SJW cooks, but actually, like, wow, those guys are cool as shit. I want what they have, right? Because I know that I want what I have, and I think that if they truly understood the reality of our lived experience, they'd want it too. But there's something that's like, keeping us from getting that to them, and I would just love to get your thoughts on. Like, yeah, what? What can we do? Like, what part, what? How do we frame this, to make it cool, you know?

Kevin Patterson  47:27  

I’d point out how counterproductive a lot of the bullshit is. Like, a lot of the a lot of the the sad boy rhetoric is really, really counterproductive. At some point, while my younger kid was just like, Daddy, why you got so many girlfriends, Daddy and I was like, because I treat them well, that's it. The only reason I'm allowed to date the way that I am, the only reason I'm able to date the way that I do is because the people in my life feel safe, seen, heard and respected by me. That's it. The second I start treating my partner shitty. They've got options. They've got lots of options. They're they're gone. If you want the TRad wife, and your idea is like, well, let me go find the the free spirit, Manny manic pixie dream girl and like, crush her into a cage. That's not gonna go the way you think it's gonna go. There is somebody out there who wants what you want. You just need to love on that person and treat them respect, respect and communication, and then you'll get the thing that you want in the way that you want. I have no designs over controlling anybody, and that allows me to be with a lot of people, people who don't want to be controlled, or people who, you know, do want to be controlled in a very, you know, consensual and negotiated way.

Genevieve  48:41  

You're right. That was, that was very concise.

Ishik  48:43  

And I'm glad I asked, because, yeah, I had the thought. The question hadn't occurred to me before this, but that I'm glad I asked that.

Genevieve  48:49  

You are an educator and a dad.

Ishik  48:51  

Yeah, you are an educator and a writer and a rad Dad. 

Ishik  48:58  

Thank you. Yeah, this is awesome. This was so great.

Genevieve  49:02  

So much. We would love to invite you to share more about your projects, as well as where people can find you online if they want to hear and see more. 

Kevin Patterson  49:13  

Yeah, I'm poly role models on everything. I've been using poly role models, even though I don't run the blog anymore. I've been at Poly role models on all brands of social media. My website is Kevin a patterson.com I sell the books there. I sell the books on the paperbacks get sold on Amazon, because that's where they're you know, self published through love's not colorblind is available everywhere that books are sold. And the ebooks for the for hire series are available anywhere. Ebooks are sold. 

Ishik  49:42  

Awesome. And as always, if you're looking for more polyamory content, Genevieve is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory, as well as on YouTube at chill polyamory, where she discusses non monogamy and film and TV.

Genevieve  49:55  

So you can support those projects and this podcast directly on Patreon, where you'll get early. Access to videos, private stories, live Q and A's an option for one on one, peer support and more. So that's patreon.com/chillpolyamory.

Ishik  50:08  

This has been I Could Never, and for everyone listening, remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean you can't do it. Bye!