Genevieve  0:00  

Welcome to I could never a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from Chill polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as usual, by my co host and partner, ishik.

Ishik  0:20  

Yeah, I'm here, and I am going to test if I can not blow out this mic with my actual intro. Hole, and now I'm here, but it's not just me that has fallen into this hole, this wonderful podcast, hole. How many times can I say hole? We are also joined by the wonderful Jocelyn crane. Jocelyn, thank you so much for joining us.

Josselyn  0:45  

Thank you so much for having me on I'm really excited

Genevieve  0:48  

for anyone who doesn't know Jocelyn. She is a solo polyamory veteran and autism coach who uses her platform on Tiktok to not only discuss the ups and downs of solo polyamory, but also to spread autism awareness. So before we jump in, we do have an icebreaker called vibe or vent, where you can talk about something that you're really feeling good about this week, or something that you need to vent about.

Ishik  1:11  

That's right, it's Vibe or vent time.

Genevieve  1:13  

Okay? So we'll go ahead. We'll have ishik Start. What are you vibing or venting about this week?

Ishik  1:19  

Yeah, I am going to be vibing today. I'm vibing when it comes to a lot of things here in Germany, everything here is, like, very structured and very like organized, and they send a ton of paperwork and stuff. I have always felt so ill equipped to handle that kind of bureaucracy, like as a whole. I don't feel like we as Americans were really properly prepared for that kind of stuff. I don't think we were taught that sufficiently. And it sort of comes down to individual training and stuff for anyone who doesn't know, we have to pay taxes in both America and Germany, because America is just the worst, the best, Don't you mean the best? And so it always like was a little terrifying, right? Like, what if we missed something? And finally, I just, like, sat down, buckled down, and, like, got it nice and organized in a binder with sticky notes and all that stuff. And it just felt so good to, like, not have this scary stuff in a drawer. And, yeah, this is a nice step forward with our handling our business here in Germany. It's nice,

Genevieve  2:27  

yeah, so for me, I would want to vent today. I was pretty frustrated and tight today, so I've been doing these videos talking about non monogamy, representation in media, and every time I do a comedy, people will be like, Oh, it's just a joke. It's just a joke. It's not that deep. Why criticize this? Why get so worked up as if I get worked up in my videos? I'm pretty calm, and that frustrates me, because I've also experienced that elsewhere in life, of just like, why do we have to have a conversation about this? Why are you overthinking this and minimizing and rejecting the critique, the kinds of thoughtfulness that actually creates security so that you can laugh and play and all of that? So I am trying to not look at the comments. Ishaq is my moderator now, which has been a lifesaver, but sometimes I fall short and I just like, open the apps and I want to see and it's never a good idea. It's never, it never goes well. So yeah, but it feels good to vent a little bit about that, because it was frustrating today. 

Josselyn  3:36  

Yeah, I really relate to your vent, because I talk a lot about, like, autistic representation in the media, and it's the same. There's a lot of people talking about autistic coded people, like, Oh, these, if you do this, you're just weird. And I come in and say, like, actually, if you do that stuff, you might be autistic. Like, I did a response to someone's video on Tiktok, critiquing all the points that he made, and so many people piled on top of me and was like it was a joke. It's not that serious. So I fully empathize. But in terms of the icebreaker, I would like to rave, I guess, what's the what are the options?

Genevieve  4:16  

Vibe, or vent. Vibe, okay? Or you can make a new term, okay? Rave

Josselyn  4:21  

Vibe. I've been vibing this week with relationship checking questions. My partner and I went through kind of a roller coaster in the past few weeks, and we came up with our own checking questions, and it feels like a really big deal, because they actually feel like they're for us, and they're gonna actually help us, like, take the barometer of our style of relationship. And it feels like most check in questions are kind of built like, if you search on the internet or search Reddit or whatever, they're all sort of skewed towards nested couples or people who spend a lot of their free time together, and they do. Haven't really worked for the type of relationships that I exist within. So I'm just really excited about the fact that I through collaboration with my partner, we came up with a list of we came up with 11 questions to check in. I'm genuinely excited, and I think it might actually like not to be overdramatic, but like, save our relationship, because I was, we were talking about de escalating, until we kind of came up with this check in strategy.

Genevieve  5:30  

 So, I mean, I think that's a good chance to jump in to describing your form and structure of non monogamy, like what it currently looks like, maybe an idea of what's drawn you to that structure. 

Josselyn  5:43  

Yeah, so I was married to my co parent for six years, and after we got divorced, I sort of experimented. I knew I was polyamorous. That was actually a big feature of like, why our marriage dissolved. But while I was a baby poly back in 2014 I had some partners who had met my kids, and I sort of like was following the relational scripts that we all follow that included certain forms of escalation. And one partner even lived with me briefly, and it just didn't feel good. It felt like it was disruptive to my kids lives, even though they were very young, you know, and my kids still mentions that one partner that I sort of brought home to meet them. And was like, Mom, why? Why did she try? And I think that she's or they're still too young to really, like, fully grasp it, but it just kind of left a bad taste in my mouth. And so I was like, All right, there's going to be boundaries here for as long as I can maintain them.

Genevieve  6:46  

Yeah, that makes sense. So, so you found your way to solo polyamory. For anyone who's unfamiliar with that term, can you share what it means to you?

Josselyn  6:55  

Yeah, for sure, solo polyamory for me is that I practice ethical non monogamy in a way that I don't escalate with my partners. So it's never my intention to living with a partner, to them, meeting my kids is a huge point for me, or sharing any financial responsibilities, or, you know, becoming one another's emergency contact. Those are all things that I sort of reserve for. Well, I live alone, so it's never my intention to live with someone, but all those other things are sort of for my co parent and my kids.

Ishik  7:27  

So what does that usually look like on your calendar? Like, you know, like, how does that translate to the day to day? Practice of polyamory,

Josselyn  7:37  

I am co parenting 50% like, well, I'm co parenting 100% of the time, but I have sole custody of my kids 50% of the time. So I have three or four days a week every week to fit all of the adult activities into, which is seeing friends, seeing partners, doing all the things that I don't do when I'm a parent. So those are my restrictions, and I have a newer partner that we've been dating for six months, who I see more frequently. I have one partner who I see once a week, and we've been dating for two years, we have escalated and de escalated, and then further de escalated. So now we're in a very comfortable like, we don't talk to each other very much, aside from just Hey. Are we hanging out this one day of the week that we normally see each other and share memes? 

Ishik  8:29  

Yeah. so I mean, with your pretty clear and tailor made needs, how do you tend to find people who fit well within that specific kind of setup?

Josselyn  8:37  

My rule is that I never pick people up out in the wild, like if I'm flirting with a stranger at the gym, whatever at a bar, I never exchange numbers with them. Really never. It's it's just it's never gonna end well, we're never really gonna be on the same page nine times out of 10. You know, they're operating from this monogamous assumption, and I'm definitely the opposite of that. So you know what? What happened in the bar, stays in the bar. So that's that helps me. And so I 100% rely on either dating apps or people I know, but usually dating apps for my like source of potential romantic partners. 

Genevieve  9:17  

I'm really curious how your connections, how you get on the same page to minimize confusion, to avoid, you know, struggle down the road of not being on the same page. What do those conversations look like early on?

Josselyn  9:30  

I have a lengthy bio, or I try to not. Every app allows for a lengthy bio, so I just make sure I go through the whole list of things. You know, what is solo poly mean to you? What is poly? How do you do polyamory? What does your poly fuel look like? And, you know, figuring out, like, do they have kids? How do they navigate dating with kids? And in terms of, like, how much emotional intimacy you're willing to give the people. Like, what are you looking for? Are people hate? I don't know why people hate that question so much on dating apps. So like, don't ask me what I'm looking for on here. I'm like, That's literally all I want to know. I just want to know what you're looking for. Like, what else am I supposed to ask? 

Ishik  10:12  

Do you feel like there are specific types of people or attitudes that fit best with your polyamory what you're looking for?

Josselyn  10:18  

I tend to gravitate towards people who, from their descriptions, are folks who, like, need to get to know someone first before they're ready to have sex with them. Of like, Oh, all right, so you actually want to be a friend to me first before we get to the benefits. And maybe that friendship will continue after the benefits come in, and maybe it won't, and that's always a risk that I have to take, but at least lets me know that they want to actually get to know me on some level first before we just jump straight into bedroom stuff.

Ishik  10:53  

I wanted to ask, do you ever get assumptions from people like eventually you'll stop being solo and you'll want to live with me, or kind of on the other end of the spectrum, if we're just casual, then you you shouldn't need any emotional support. 

Josselyn  11:08  

All of the above. I had one partner who we dated for six months, and I could tell he wanted a little bit more emotional intimacy, and sort of you wanted for me to step into, like, a true primary role, and kind of thinking that eventually, of course, I would choose that, because that's the superior option. And I was like, yeah, that's not really for me. I don't really want that. I would rather not. Thank you. And but mostly especially on dating apps, it's people who just think like, oh, I'm only in it for one night stands, and that's all that I want, is casual sex.

Ishik  11:45  

You know, I think just to kind of follow up on that, the idea of that, the risk, of whether or not the connection continues. I think that you have previously spoken about the idea that some friends with benefits relationships can have sort of a shelf life. 

Josselyn  12:00  

Yeah. I mean, I have very much noticed some for some reason at the six month mark needs seem to really shift for a friends with benefits relationship, and so you need to actually start putting work into the relationship, into maintaining it. And things get more real, I will say, like life problems start filtering in, and it's not all fun and sunshine anymore, and sometimes people aren't okay with that, or they're like, Yeah, this was fun and it didn't really work out, and it's not what I'm looking for, or I'm catching feelings for you, and that's not something that I want. So let's de escalate. Or you realize like you had different expectations than I did about what this was going to look like eventually. And so yeah, it just seems like there's a really big shake up at the six month mark.

Ishik  12:50  

You mentioned having a partner that you've been with for, I think you said two and a half years, two plus years. You know what happened with that relationship that pushed it past that six to eight month mark.

Josselyn  13:02  

So how did we get past the six month mark? I mean, we just really, really liked each other, like, enough to continue, even though things were rocky and, like, it was clear that I wasn't getting my needs all the way met, and he was kind of not getting his needs all the way met. There was still enough there to kind of like, mutually decide, well, we're going to continue this. Let's just change the shape of it a little bit. 

Genevieve  13:27  

So what did changing the shape with him look like? Like? What did you do? 

Josselyn  13:31  

So at first, we started seeing each other more after six months, and doing more stuff that was like, not bedroom related. And then he got another partner that he wanted to escalate a little bit more with. So around the year mark, we were like, Okay, let's just step down a little bit. Through our talks about de escalation, we really kind of came up with the pain points that we were going through specifically questions around like, did you feel like you had enough openings to share your needs. Like, was I kind of just steamrolling over you and just like saying what I wanted, and was I, like, able to hold space for you enough that you didn't feel like a burden? Because that's a big deal that we, like both kind of feel like we're overburdening this is actually something that I've been talking a lot with my autistic friends about who have been struggling with people pleasing and high masking and sort of becoming someone in order to fit social norms, doing what everyone else wants and providing for everyone else's needs and ignoring your own. Like I'm putting so much into this, and I have done so much to try to figure out what your needs are and what would make you happy, and I feel like you've done, you know, not even the bare minimum in return to make me feel like any of that effort was worth it. And that really stinks. It's a really horrible feeling to feel, and a lot of my soul searching was like, How have I contributed to this dynamic? You know, it's easy to blame the other person. Like, well, you're not reciprocating on all this effort that I put in, but why have I been putting so much effort in without getting my needs met? And how have I been complicit in that behavior?

Genevieve  15:10  

I super relate. I've been on both ends of that, of just yearning for something that people have not given any indication that they're trying to give, but like, maybe that can be earned. Maybe if I do a little bit, you know, more, then it'll it'll work, and it can be sort of a self setup for disappointment and feeling wronged. But I've also been on the other end of that where people are reaching out to me and giving me a lot and sending me photos and things, and I'm like, I didn't ask for this, you know, like, I like you, but also I think you're wanting something that from the jump, I was not trying to give. And so I like this nuance around not demonizing asymmetry, not demonizing a lack of reciprocity, but just investigating and asking, what does everybody want, and do we feel matched in what we want and are able to give

Ishik  16:06  

clearly, it can be a little difficult to balance your needs and your partner's needs and while still keeping things feeling matched. So how do you feel like you manage to keep things feeling balanced?

Josselyn  16:20  

I can't talk highly enough about relationship check ins, just for the record, because they really establish a baseline level of safety of talking about the good and the bad, and so you're not coming to your partner only when we have to have a talk and it's heavy, because I think there's just not a lot of room in a friends with benefits style relationship for like, heavy feelings or like heavy life stuff, it kind of feels more of like a downer. You know, my guiding light has always been like, what do I really want to nip in the bud before it becomes like a big problem? What would I rather know now every week from my partner than find out in two months time, in a really tearful, like, stressful conversation. And it doesn't have to be this, like, big guilt ridden, shame ridden, I'm failing you kind of thing.

Ishik  17:10  

I think that what you guys are discussing, I think that that is definitely a learned skill. I recall a relationship I had pretty early on, when I was starting down the road of non monogamy, she had expressed so much interest and thought it was really great. And like, we talked about it for a long time, like it was, like a main thing about how we were connecting. Then, you know, like a couple of weeks later, as the relationship, you know, quote, progressed, as we got to know each other more, and she was starting to build a feel, like a feeling of connection with me, prior to a date with her, I went out with somebody else and ended up having sex. And then the next day, I was like, Hey, I just want to let you know that I went out on this date last night and we did have sex, and just so that you're not feeling like there's anything being hidden or whatever. And I could tell that there was definitely some tension. Like, the rest of the evening was very tense. And then later in the evening, after we went back to her place and we had sex, and then almost like, within 1530 seconds after we finished having sex, she was like, So are you gonna see her again? And I was just like, I don't know, maybe, like, it was just like, so very obvious that this wasn't okay, right? Despite it being something that she'd said up front. Oh yeah, yeah, no, that's so awesome. That's so interesting. When it actually came, when the rubber hit the road, it was pretty clear that her intention didn't match her needs, right? And what she needed, for me, was monogamous commitment.

Josselyn  18:41  

Yes, I've had, what's the polyamory term for someone who's monogamous and tries to, like, rope you into monogamy? Oh, cowboying. Cowboying. Cow poking. Cow poking. Yeah, I've had people try to cow poke me into monogamy. 

Genevieve  19:02  

And sometimes, no matter how much due diligence I do in the beginning, like, I find out, Oh, it wasn't 100 you weren't 100% honest with me, yeah, or that they're honest with themselves, right? Because I think a lot of people, cognitively, they're like, Yeah, I want this. This agrees with my values, whatever. And then somatically, they just have panic, which I relate to I had that early on, like a lot of us, have trauma, you know? And this can be really dysregulating to be in situations you've never been in with, people that you are intimate with, right? So that can set off a lot. So yeah, you can have a conversation up front, but keep looking and paying attention and gently, compassionately but firmly checking in. Hey. So what did it mean? How are you feeling. How are you doing to understand the reality, not what they said, but what they do and what they're capable of doing at this moment. I imagine some people who are listening to this might be sort of new to the topic of neurodivergence, and I know it's such a core part of your work. Would you be open to sharing a little bit about what your autism looks like and how you navigate it in general,

Josselyn  20:16  

I can try. The autism spectrum is so varied. And I want to preface this by saying, if you know one autistic person, you know one autistic person, and it's very hard to generalize, yeah, based on knowing one. So within the broader umbrella of neurodivergence exists autism. Neurodivergence includes everything from dyslexia, CPTSD, traumatic brain injury, autism. ADHD, so when you say someone is neurodivergent, it could be any of those things, and a neurotypical is someone who doesn't have any like who has a typical brain in the DSM, there's three levels of autism, level one, level two, level three. And the higher the number, the higher the support needs in terms of activities, of daily living and being able to live independently. So obviously, I have lower support needs. I'm able to live alone and function fairly well on my own. You know, I'm able to verbalize my thoughts and opinions pretty clearly. The way it comes up for me is that I'm very sensory sensitive. I'm very much a patterns based thinker. I'm very detail oriented. I can very much miss more subtle communication cues. Those things don't come naturally to me. And so it feels like people kind of have this unconscious rule book that they all follow, that I don't have a copy of but I also have done a lot of formal education to try to understand how human beings human, in order to compensate for my lack of intuitive knowledge.

Genevieve  21:54  

Do you also see your autism show up in your polyamory, like influencing it or vice versa? Like, do you see any particular intersections of those two things?

Josselyn  22:04  

I think polyamory in general, just like, lends itself very easily to being autistic, because the requirement and expectation is that you're going to have so many direct conversations about what you want and what's happening, and making sure everyone's on the same page and not relying as much on subtext or, you know, assumptions or inference to get to a shared meaning of like, what your relationship is or what it looks like. So that just makes me really happy, because there's another previous partner who I dated for six months, like a few years ago, who has recently come back and started talking to me again, and I'm like, is he trying to date me? Is he interested in me? Is this like a rekindling, or are we just friends now? So I have all these questions about what his intentions are and what we're doing, and I was talking to my friend about it yesterday, and she was like, you should just have a direct conversation with him, and I don't have to sit here guessing.

Ishik  23:04  

I mean, I think even with years of practice, it can still be pretty easy to fall back on making those kinds of assumptions

Josselyn  23:13  

and and also dealing with that from people, right? There's a lot of ways that people tend to put you in a box, and it can often be that there's a lot of disrespect. 

Ishik  23:23  

Are there any specific ways that you tend to see people will disrespect you in that way? 

Josselyn  23:28  

Well, I mean, people look at my life and they think that I don't have any relationships, and that I'm just single all the time, and it's so sad, and woe is me, and you live alone. I mean, they see that I have kids, obviously. So I'm not completely alone, but on society's checklist, I think people like pity me a lot, and they're like, Yeah, but don't you want like, a real, like, validating cool, like relationship like we all do, actually, no, I'm really happy having, like, awesome, hot, wild sex for three hours every Tuesday and then sending that person packing and not having to talk to them for the rest of the week like that. I know it doesn't make it just doesn't make sense to people.

Genevieve  24:11  

Do you get the sense that that is tied in any way to like a matter normativity, the norm that everybody should be wanting a romantic partnership and prioritizing that above all else? 

Josselyn  24:21  

Yes, well, I think it's just that there's sort of this status that you get every time you meet a level of escalation. Your relationship gets more and more valid in the eyes of society. When you start living together, when you're exclusive, when you get married, when you have kids, when once you meet all of those checkpoints, then you have the most valid, secure, awesome relationship. But if you're not meeting any of those milestones, it's just, it's not, it doesn't count. So it's very rare for someone who I'm in a relationship with to even want to discuss romantic feelings or to feel open to having romantic. Feelings for me, because it doesn't seem like that's even like a thing that should happen, that romance is only for the real, valid relationships, and every other relationship, it's not worth anyone's time or consideration, and I don't need to really treat you respectfully or like human being.

Ishik  25:18  

That really, yeah, that super sucks because it's just like, why are we tying the premise of like, personhood and respect to whether or not you, like, live with someone or want to do that at all? It's pretty ridiculous. 

Josselyn  25:34  

And, yeah, no, it does suck. 

Genevieve  25:36  

Yeah, I mean, and it's not lost on me that people were like, well, you have kids, so that part's at least good, like that fits the expectation. But, but yeah, I mean, On that, I did want to ask, you know, keeping your kids and your parenting life, you know, so separate from your romantic and dating life, does it ever feel like parts of yourself are very compartmentalized, too?

Josselyn  26:00  

Yeah, it is more compartmentalized, just because, like, you know, partners come and go, friends can even sometimes come and go. I had a big friend shake up over covid, as I think a lot of people did. My kids are always going to be there, and that's why they're the priority for me is that I want to keep that as consistent as possible, and then I try for my friends to be the next most stable thing. Want to insulate them from the ups and downs of who I'm dating and who are you seeing now? Who's this person? Who's that person? I'm like, you don't have to remember anyone in its name. It's okay. And so the whole messy, the messy third tier of Friends with Benefits and romantic, pseudo romantic relationships, that is the biggest wall that I have. 

Ishik  26:46  

So, I mean, I think that the insulation from the mess, right from the revolving door for, you know, be it your kids or for your friendships, it sounds like these, are some of the pros of having that kind of compartmentalized barriers in place. Are there any cons that you've experienced around that approach of like, kind of having these separations? 

Josselyn  27:08  

Yeah, there's a lot of cons. It feels like I'm living like separate lives, which, on the one hand is kind of exciting sometimes and freeing, but on the other hand, feels like Does anyone really know who I am, and the answer is I do, like some people consider a solo polyamory to be self partnered, where, like, you are your own primary partner. And sometimes that's very much how I identify as like I'm doing all of this stuff because it makes me happy, and it's how I want to lead my life, and I'm the one that knows me the best. I don't expect all of these other people to know me as well as I do, but the downsides are definitely that, you know, people look at my life and they're like, What are you even doing? It's so complicated, and sometimes it does feel like a lot, but ultimately it's still very fulfilling, so I don't want to change it.

Genevieve  28:00  

Yeah, I think there's value in trying to let go of the question, where is this going? Because I think I hear that so much of like, okay, so where is this going in people that I'm connecting with, but also in friends and tension that I don't know is always necessary. Of like, well, couldn't consistently doing this every Tuesday be what we do. Does there need to be an end to that? Does there need to be more? Can't consistency or stasis be defined as success? You know, I've had to do that like I had to do that with a partner who is was a comet, and he lived in California, and he came to Berlin, and he was thinking about moving to Berlin, and I had so much consistency with him, regular check ins, regular Hangouts, despite the nine hour time difference. Came to Berlin and hates the city. Hated it worst experience he's ever had. And I was like, okay, so he decided he's not going to move here. Now that doesn't change anything for me. I'd love to keep doing the regular video dates and the regular talking that we had been doing, but the minute that he was like, this is not going somewhere. I'm not going to move here to be with you, I was instantly deprioritized, and he kept canceling our Hangouts without any conversation. And so what I'm hearing from you is like that there can be that fluctuation in desire or in what you're offering each other, but as long as it's talked about and mutually agreed upon, then it can be nice. 

Ishik  29:34  

Yeah, I mean, I know a lot of times we're not, you know, obviously immune from going on autopilot and assuming that any given relationship needs to be headed in a certain direction or look a certain way. How do you push back against that internalized messaging? Or do you still struggle with that? 

Josselyn  29:55  

Sometimes it is tough to have when there's so much tension between. Who, quote, unquote, should be meeting your emotional needs, which is a romantic partner, and who is actually meeting my emotional needs, which are my friends? And sometimes that I find myself putting all of these like expectations on romantic partners of like, Yeah, but you should be holding space for this in my life when, clearly I have intentionally designed my relationships, so that they don't have to do that. But there's still this sort of like normative stuff floating around in my head saying, like, Yeah, but if they really cared about you, they would want to get to know you more, or they there would be more intimacy in some way, or all of this stuff. And I it's kind of a constant game of fighting against that. Of like, Nope, I never want to be somebody's the one ever again. So I would only like to be part of someone's life, part of a rich tapestry of things that they have that makes them happy. I think having multiple joyful, genuinely like relaxed, open connections without having to follow all the scripts of what society tells you a relationship should look like or feel like, or any of this stuff is so freeing, and it has opened the doors for, like, so much more genuine love and affection in my life, and also a lot of alone time, which, being autistic, I really need To regulate. I don't feel this weird expectation that I have to have someone else around, like skulking around my house, kind of like being in my zone. If I don't want to, I can kick them out and not feel any guilt about that whatsoever. Because I'm like, Yeah, you go in your own space. I'll be in my space, and then we'll meet up and we'll have a wonderful time, but I don't have to feel guilty about how much time I need to spend alone regulating. 

Ishik  31:48  

You know, I think it is not lost on me, and we've sort of touched on this a couple of times from various angles, but this like battle between the assumed, sort of normative perceptions that certain types of relationships will be secure, that will be where our needs are met, where we get all our happiness, if we're riding up that escalator to heaven, you know? And the reality that that's not the case for not just non monogamous people, but people in general like that. The solution is this very deliberate, personalized approach.

Genevieve  32:26  

Absolutely like, let's tailor make this shit.

Josselyn  32:39  

Well, first of all, I want to say that de escalation is not always breaking up. And my friend put it best, I think, a few days ago when she said, like, de escalation is really just focusing on strengths, instead of, like, focusing on what you not have, what you don't have in the relationship. You're like, okay, how can we just reprioritize what's really good and easy about this? You know, we're really great at being friends and seeing movies together, but we're not so great at like, navigating this relationship stuff, or sex one day a week, or maybe we wanted it to be romantic, and that didn't really work out. So let's just focus on more, like a friends with benefits thing to pat myself on the back a little bit. A lot of people compliment me on the relationship that I have with my co parent, and that was one of the hardest de escalations. Was going from, you know, married for six years spouse, but the relationship we do currently have is CO parents.

Ishik  33:31  

Yeah, I'm really curious. That's obviously a lot of big change going from your previous relationships to how they're structured. Now, can you tell us a bit about that transition? 

Josselyn  33:41  

It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life. I literally felt like I destroyed my entire life, and everyone was telling me that I was gonna mess up my kids and I was ruining my whole life, because I had the dream, right? I had successfully relationshipped. I had escalated as far as you can possibly escalate, and everyone was like, you have the thing, you're married with kids, you live together in this great house, and you're happy, right? Like everyone kind of just projects happiness onto you when you've you've met the goals and checked all the boxes. And to have to say, actually, no, this is not what I wanted at all. This is just what I've done, because society told me that that's how human beings work. It was really, really difficult to have to kind of people were like, you're throwing it away and you're making a huge mistake. And how could you do that? So divorce, for a lot of people is this big sign that you failed, that it didn't feel like we were failing. You know, I don't think of it as like we had a failed marriage, and that's why I don't talk about my co parent in terms of the relationship we had. They're like, but he's your ex husband, isn't he? I'm like, Yes, we were married at some point, but I don't like to focus on the fact that we were married and now we're not. We have a great working relationship as CO parents, and, you know, we're friends. This too. 

Genevieve  35:01  

I think it's really beautiful, letting go of the all or nothing, you know, of what do we still do that works, and sort of parsing, keeping what works, and letting go of the kind of connections that are not enjoyable, that are not sustainable, and that by doing that, it's not so all in or all out, because if it is all or nothing, then you have to choose nothing, if some of it doesn't work, but it doesn't have to be that way.

Josselyn  35:29  

I mean, I think that's the one thing right, is like, don't be a dick. Don't be disrespectful to the person that you're breaking up with. Like we're all human. It's not their fault that they're not meeting your needs. It doesn't reflect on your value as a person. These are just the facts of what's happening. So like, Yeah, I think it's better to just focus on like, well, what can we do? What's good for both of us? And yes, it hurts and it sucks, and de escalation can be heartbreaking. I think ultimately, it's better to consider the long term goal of like, Yeah, but I want this person in my life in some way, because they're an amazing person.

Genevieve  36:09  

If anyone listening is currently in the position you were, I don't know, 10 years ago or so, what would your suggestions or feedback be for them? If they're like, I don't even know where to start. 

Josselyn  36:23  

The piece of advice that stuck with me the most that I have given out to multiple people who are considering throwing their relationship into the fire pit and starting over again is, what would you want to model for your kids? What would you tell your child who was going through this? What would you want them to do? Would you want them to stay in a relationship just for the sake of staying in a relationship because it's checking all the boxes? Or would you want them to be in a relationship that's really self actualizing and is what they genuinely want? And of course, when it comes to your kids, you would want them to do the thing that makes them the happiest. So what better way to teach them that lesson than to model that behavior for them? And I would say that it seems really hard and scary because it is, but it's not impossible. And like I mean, but I would never fault anyone for going against the grain. It's such a personal decision. So if I were to talk to me from 10 years ago versus someone else who I don't know if my advice would fit their life, I would say, like, do it do the thing that you're scared is to do because it's going to lead to the most happiness, even though it's going to be the hardest thing you've ever fucking done in your life. 

Ishik  37:38  

Yeah, it's pretty clear that, as you're talking about all of this, that you've done quite a bit of work and have some very hard earned peace with it, but I'm also hearing that in letting go of your marriage, you didn't let go of getting your needs met. Do you feel like your friends have kind of filled that and taken a more core role in that regard?

Josselyn  37:59  

For sure. Yeah. In fact, I usually reserve the most important events in my life for friends, like I specifically try not to involve romantic partners in my birthday or my favorite things to do over the summer, or trips or like Valentine's Day, even I'd had a date to go out with my best friend on Valentine's Day, because both of us have partners with primary partners, if that makes sense,

Genevieve  38:29  

yeah, yeah, man, we can absolutely do candlelit dinners with friends. 

Josselyn  38:34  

Yeah, we were supposed to spend in the evening together doing romantic stuff and like, telling each other how much we appreciate and love each other as friends on like our hot Valentine's Day date with air quotes.

Genevieve  38:47  

I really love the framing of your friends being your significant support system. I think of my grandma, who had like, 40 friends in her sorority, and as they were aging, they took care of each other, like one of her friends was 80, and then went to nursing school, and by 84 she was able to, like, be a nurse to her friends, you know. And it was really beautiful, because a lot of them started to become widowed, and their nuclear family was not what would keep them secure and happy. So, yeah, do you? Do you ever get that pushback or that questioning of, like, are you gonna grow old alone? Or like, who's gonna take care of you, that expectation that a nuclear family equals long term security, nothing else?

Josselyn  39:37  

Yeah, all the time, as though, like, those things are a guarantee of security. There is no security. I think that there's a false sense of security, because marriages end all the time, and when people get sick and need a lot of help, some people just nope out of it and leave for straight women in marriages with straight men who are cisgendered. The. Chances of them surviving some like life altering illness or shake up with their marriage intact is very slim when you know a big thing like cancer or what have you, strikes, men are much more likely to leave their partners.

Ishik  40:14  

Yeah. I mean, I can't think of the numbers off the top of my head, but I do know that it's way too common and super fucked up. And it's one of those things that really pisses me off when people talk about non monogamy and say that doesn't work, because, you know, quote, a healthy home environment depends on the nuclear family. 

Josselyn  40:35  

The nuclear family is very fragile, but we seem to have imbued it philosophically with all of this strength, and I would much rather be in a situation like your grandma, where we have these sort of, like soul sister relationships, and we all take care of each other. Where can I sign up for that?

Ishik  40:53  

You know, I think it's not necessarily an irony, but it is a little funny to me that, you know, a lot of the topic of discussion today has been about solo polyamory. There are these, you know, these stereotypes about being self centered, or, you know, in it for yourself, or commitment phobic, and all these things. But then the reality is, we're talking about community. The way that you're practicing and experiencing your solo, polyamorous life is a heavy focus on family and friendships and connections and seeking the balm of support from other people. And I just, I always love whenever there is this, you know, when, when our conversations really directly challenge a lot of these stereotypes that are about us, because they're almost always wrong,

Genevieve  41:41  

As well as challenging, like, sort of militant, hyper independence. I've definitely met some solo folks who are like, I want to need nobody. It's just me against the world and like, I get it. I've had that hyper vigilance in response to trauma. I've like, been like, I can only rely on myself, but softening and starting to let one person in and then another person, and slowly, you know, to really not go it alone, even though it's so low. Polyamory is like, structurally you're not having interdependence, you know, sharing finances, sharing housing, things like that. It sounds like your life is still full with people, and I think that that's a really great model of solo polyamory.

Josselyn  42:26  

Thanks. Yeah. I mean, it really is. It really feels full, but it's been by design, like I've had to go out and really, like, find people, and to the point where my friend and I even started a neurodivergent social club a year ago for our local area, so that we could start making more autistic friends, because that has also been life changing, being able to like, let your guard down a little bit. But yeah, I 100% agree with everything that you said. And for the people out there that feel like that, they have to be islands because it's hard to depend on other people, there is a beauty that you're missing out on in the interdependence, and it's okay if you don't want to experience it, because it's scary, but it's also what sort of like human beings are encoded to do. Is like, exist in community, and I think it's one of the most like punk and bad ass things you can do to try to design a life that features a lot of close, interpersonal, committed bonds, that doesn't have any trappings of the nuclear family.

Ishik  43:33  

Josselyn, this has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much. I've had a wonderful time speaking with you. Thank you. 

Josselyn  43:39  

Thank you guys so much for having me on and for doing this and like, I just, I love your content, and I love the community that you're building around it and the ways that you're talking about non monogamy. I've been admiring your accounts for a long time, so I'm just like, I'm so honored to be here. Thank you for thinking of me.

Genevieve  43:59  

Thank you so much. So where can people find you online? If they want to get to know you more?

Josselyn  44:06  

They can find me on Instagram or on Tiktok, and my handle is just Jocelyn C. On Instagram, I think it's Jocelyn underscore C, and I think on Tiktok, it's Jocelyn dot c.

Ishik  44:17  

And is there any specific work that you're doing now, or any upcoming projects that you wanted to tell the listeners about?

Josselyn  44:25  

Well, if you live in the Pittsburgh area and you are autistic, you should join the spicy brain collective, because that is our neurodivergent social group, and we meet every month, and it's really fun. And I am planning on launching a course soon for late diagnosed autistic people and learning how to cope and deal with the stress of the late diagnosis journey. So follow me and find out more about that. 

Ishik  44:52  

As always, you can find a ton more from Genevieve on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory, lots of interesting. And helpful short form content. You can also check out her YouTube channel, where we are exploring non monogamy representations in media.

Genevieve  45:08  

And I also do have a patreon where I have bonus written and video resources, private stories, you know, juicy gossip, along with advanced access to a lot of my content, early access. So if you're looking for additional support. I also offer peer support. We're all doing a lot of stuff around here, so you can learn more at chill polyamory.com or patreon.com/chill polyamory. 

Ishik  45:30  

And to our listeners, as always, just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it.

Genevieve  45:46  

If you like the show and want to support us, you can rate and review it on Spotify and Apple podcasts. It really helps new people find us as well. If you want to financially help out, this show is mostly funded by patreon.com/chillpolyamory