Genevieve 00:05

Welcome to I could never - a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from chill polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, ishik.

Ishik 00:18
Hey. Hey.Hope everyone's having a wonderful day,

Genevieve 00:21
and we are joined today by Jaime Gama, aka gotitas de poliamor on Instagram and amemoseticamente on Tiktok. Did I say that Okay?

Jaime Gama 00:31
That was perfect. The best I've heard so far internationally. So yay.

Genevieve 00:38
Jaime is a non monogamous psychotherapist based in Mexico City. Jaime, thank you so much for joining us.

Jaime Gama 00:45
Thank you for inviting me. I'm so excited. I love your content. You have no idea, besides the fact that it's amazing information, your voice is so calming.

Ishik 00:52

Well, I know I am personally super excited to get to know you more and dive into not only your personal experiences, but also some of your expertise as a psychotherapist. But before we get into all that, we like to start each episode with a segment we call vibe or vent. Essentially, there are a lot of great things in our life that we love to celebrate and vibe about, also a lot of bad stuff in the world that sometimes we need to vent about, and, you know, get off our chest. So personally, today I'm gonna be vibin

Genevieve 01:26 

What are you vibing on baby?

Ishik 01:27

I am feeling really good. I'm feeling really excited. Obviously, we are working together on the podcast, but we've also started working more together on a few other creative endeavors, uh, specifically the part that I'm really most excited about this media analysis stuff that's going on on YouTube, all these different interesting representations of non monogamy in media, because I think so often it's just a lot of sex focused, or it's Mormonism, I think is another just like, you know, or like, you know, kind of religious, religious polygamy. So, yeah, no. It's just really nice to see all this interesting stuff, not only how it can look really beautiful, but how it can be messy too, just like any relationship. And so it's just been really fun to do that with you. It's been really exciting. 

Genevieve 02:10

Yeah, it's fun to work on and think about different examples. Yeah, well, I, I'm actually wanting to vent today. Um, specifically like how tech companies are pretty unreliable and untrustworthy. The news just came out today that Tiktok is losing a lot of its rights to music as of at least a recording. It'll be February 1, when all of Universal Media Group is just pulling all of their songs, and overnight, a lot of people's videos will just become silent. Wow. And I'm not even, like, personally, I don't know if you are either, Jaime, like, affected by it, because not really, yeah, we use, you know, but it's more about just the power that companies have that like, so every small business is on social media. It is people's marketing arm, you know. We, we are what makes platforms, you know. And so it's not just about creators. It's about people's personal lives, their livelihood, sometimes their personal safety depends on these platforms, and just overnight, they can make a change that affects a lot of people, because they just two companies are fighting. So yeah, I think if there's anything to vent about, it's about companies with some unchecked power. Anyway, that's what's on my mind. Jaime, do you have something on your mind that you're either really happy about or annoyed about?

Jaime Gama 03:26
Yeah, I'm just thinking like I have both. Do I have to choose? I'm gonna do both. Both? Yeah, you can do both, because that's who I am. I'm vibing because one My birthday is tomorrow.

Ishik 03:37
Oh my god, happy birthday tomorrow. 

Jaime Gama 03:39
Thank you. And tomorrow I'm gonna start writing my book. I just got signed by Random Penguin house that's so fascinating.

Genevieve 03:45 

What's your book on?

Jaime Gama 03:50

This. Just polyamory, relationships, just all those things. And the thing I would like to vent about is, like, my long distance partner's boss just told him he cannot work remotely anymore. It's just the idea of him not being able to visit makes it really complicated.

Genevieve 04:05
So, yeah, another way that, like a company, can just change people's lives on a whim.

Jaime Gama 04:12
Exactly those were those people who have no regard for people's lives.

Genevieve 04:15

Well, we do want to dive into the topic and maybe doing a preview a little bit of what's in your book, actually,

Jaime Gama 04:22 

very likely.

Genevieve 04:25
Yeah, so I'd love to share with people a little bit more about you. You described yourself as a non monogamous person in a polyamorous relationship. That's right, correct.

Jaime Gama 04:35

I've never identified as polyamorous ever. People just freak out when I say it. I am in a polyamorous relationship because I wanted to explore it. My nesting partner has always been polyamorous, and I wasn't really into exploring where I met him. I said, I want to be monogamous. Polyamory doesn't work. It's stupid. So if you want someone like that, find someone else, and here we are. But eventually I started getting really. Curious that I wanted to try it, not because it was part of me. It was more like, I don't know if I can do this or if I want to do this, but I'm very kinky, and monogamy is not very compatible with kink a lot of the time, or my kinks at least. I don't feel like I fit in polyamory, but I don't fit in monogamy. I like exploring different relationships. I like having ethical relationships. I don't have to have them, and I don't feel constrained by having only one partner. 

Genevieve 05:30
You mentioned, like sometimes people get upset. What kinds of pushback do people have when you describe that it's not a part of your identity?

Jaime Gama 05:37

So I have a thing with labels. I love labels. I think we need labels to find our people. If I tell you that I am a cisgender gay man who is into this specific kink, and I am non monogamous, and you're looking for someone that is not that it helps us, just not, you know, waste your time. I think a lot of the times, what people, they have a different idea of what that means. And they don't stop to ask me what that means to me. Like, people just give me like, but you are polyamorous? And like, No, I'm in a polyamorous relationship, and I give them the comparison of, if I cook, I'm not a chef. Like, it's not my career is not what I do. I can cook, but I don't identify as a chef. I'm a teacher. I taught for 20 years. That's part of who I am. I like teaching people. I like exploring things. The thing with labels is, as long as the people involved in the relationship agree on that meaning, nothing else matters. But people have issues trying to understand other like not even trying to understand other people's labels. 

Ishik 06:38

I think so, just to for the listeners to get a better sense of what your current structure looks like. Can you describe a little bit about what your non monogamous relationships look like right

Jaime Gama 06:49

Yes, I have a nesting partner. We've been together for 10 years, been polyamorous for like six, I think more monogamous for the first, like year and a half. And I was like, let's explore other things. And he's an angel, like he's literally one of the most amazing people I've ever met. He's just so caring and loving and just it's amazing at the moment, I have a long distance partner. We met a year ago, and we're sharing very specific kinks. And I was like, oh, I want to explore this, because my nesting partner is very non kinky. So I was like, Well, you know, that's fine, because live with other people. And I also have a I call it a satellite partner, but it's not a romantic relationship. It's a kinky relationship, and I see him, like, every three months, something like that. So that's basically my structure at the moment

Ishik 07:32
You dropped the Term Satellite partner, satellite relationship. Would you be willing to dive in a little

bit about how you would define that?

Jaime Gama 07:39

Yeah, I don't like the primary, secondary, tertiary terms. They always give me a lot of trouble. A, because I'm autistic and I can't make hierarchies, it's really hard. And B, I just have a lot of ethical issues with that. So the other thing, which I personally call cosmic polyamory, because I like the idea, is the nesting partner, the one where your lives are entangled, which is more traditionally, what a partner would look like in monogamy. The satellite partner is someone who is orbiting your life like, he's not as entangled, but he's part of your system. He's part of where you are. And then there's the comet, right? That comes like, every now and then when they come, it's, it's amazing, it's a party, and they leave, and that's okay. So for me, the difference that was geared between anchor partner or nesting partner, if you live together and satellite is I consider anchors in my life decisions. So if I want to move to another country, if I want to change my job, all those things that are going to change my life, I always talk to my anchor partners. Hey, this is going to happen, and this how it might affect you. Let's talk about this a satellite I would share it. This is happening. I'm so excited. 

Genevieve 08:47

I think it's really beautiful. Like the metaphorical language being used to replace the ranking language. Yeah, so much. Yeah. Like cosmic language of or in the sea, you know, anchors. You can have multiple anchors in different ports. It doesn't imply ones above another Exactly. I think that that can be a really beautiful way, and also a bit of a shorthand, going back to labels to make it accessible to people, where it's like a new concept, like, Oh well, I can accept that there's a lot of stars in the sky.

Genevieve 09:19

when people start out monogamous open and they're still with their partner, I always want to know, how'd you do it? What was that like? So can you walk us through a little bit about, you know, the thought process, the conversations like, how did you go from closed to open?

Jaime Gama 09:35

We really started opening up. Like eight years ago. Polyamory was more present, like six years ago. When I met him, I had just come out of a relationship that had been just very complicated. I just I was little done. I was like, I just want to be happy, and I had to put myself first. And I started making a list of my perfect partner, and when I met Marco, he was all of those things. He. I was really impressed. And then he when he said about polyamorous like, of course, something had to not work. And I said, You know what? At this point in my life, I really don't want to try polyamory. I've seen it, I've studied it, interviewed people. I don't want to try it. If you want polyamory, that's perfectly fine. You need to find someone else. I am not your person. I want a monogamous relationship. And then he said, No, I want to try. I can be monogamous with you. I can just choose to be just with you. And I said, Okay, if at any point this changes, we need to talk about it. And that's okay. So he was choosing having only me as a partner, and that choice can change which people I think, don't consider. Eventually, I started thinking about exploring my sexuality more, because very not sexual for such a long time, there was a lot I didn't explore. We opened the relationship a little bit so it would be with other people, but only together, up until the point when we met this one person, and it was just supposed to be like a hookup, and it was great. Then a week later, he came back for another hookup, and then it happened again, and then again, and then again, and then three months later, it's still happening. He's staying over, and I'm like, Okay, I don't know what's happening. And I told him both and this, I'm not proud of this. I didn't know better. I told him both, if any of us falls in love. This stops. I don't want polyamory, so this is good as a sexual thing, but if you fall in love with us, or we fall in love with you, I don't want that. This stops, which made a huge mess. What's funny is that one day, Marco, Sunday morning, he told me, You do realize you're in love with this person, right? And I'm like, No, me, no, I don't do that. And then we started talking. I'm like, Oh, I am in love with him, damn it.

Ishik 11:57

You know, obviously you are creating content online about non monogamy. Clearly, you're very open beyond just like your personal circles. Did you have any types of like reactions from family members or friends who are monogamous? Or, like, was there any feedback or pushback? Or, you know, did you get a lot of support at the beginning?

Jaime Gama 12:18

I started dating someone, and it got serious. And then I said, I have to tell my family. I'm not a big family person, but if there's something big, I want him to come as well. So this one time, I had lunch with my mother, my brother, my sister and her children, and I said, so I talked about something, and I explained more or less what it was. And my mother said, Yeah, Facebook, I saw you with this other person. So I just assumed. I was like, okay, that works. And then the next time I saw them, I went with my partners. And it was really funny, because my nephew, he was just staring at me, and he goes, Uncle, do you love him? Pointing to Marco. I was like, Yes, I love him very much. And then he pointed to my other partner. He's like, Do you love him? And I'm like, Yes, I love him very much. And then he goes, Are you getting married? I said, No, I don't want to get married. He's like, okay. So most of the reaction that I got from a lot of people, again, I have the privilege of being a cisgender gay man who is independent, and I work for myself, so nothing that I do depends on my relationship model. So I'm very open about it, because if you don't like it, that's okay. You don't have to connect with me, you we don't have to be in the same circles. But not every has that privilege. I had this client once, she was 18, and she said that she wanted to do what I do. Said, I'm just going to come out as polyamorous and as bisexual to my family and the world. And I was like, you are 18, you don't have a job, you don't have people who can support you. Your family is very religious. You're in a country that's very religious, and you're in a little small town. If you do this, your well being is at risk. Maybe your life will be at risk. Yes, to being true to yourself, but I also want you to be alive, so maybe start working towards a system that makes things better for you.

Genevieve 14:10

Yeah. I mean, that does answer my question of like, because it is such a luxury to be able to share openly about anything non normative that you're doing, right? It is. It was even a luxury, like once I started getting heavily tattooed, I waited until I was like, certain that I could self employ, let alone coming out as queer and then non monogamous, yeah. And so to be really thoughtful of like and risk, aware of the systems that play, social and institutional that could put up some barriers. So my question was going to be, like with people that you talk to who don't have as much of a strong support? What do you recommend? It sounds like really being thoughtful about creating some like self protective measures. Do you have any thoughts for people who maybe are in a more conservative and. Environment, or their family doesn't approve, or their friends are well meaning and give them terrible advice. What do you say to that person who's like, I don't I don't have any support.

Jaime Gama 15:10

It's very unlikely that there's zero people around you who want to support you. It's very unlikely. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm sure it happens, but maybe it's that one person that starts by saying, I don't understand it, but I'm here for you. Go to that one and start building that relationship with other people who will support you. I did my my research for Master for my master's thesis was about a polyamory and gay men and masculinity, and what I found was that the most important indicator of gay men who want to explore monogamy in a non hierarchical way was community. If they it didn't matter a lot if like they felt more confident, or if they looked a certain way, or they had partners or not, or it was just community. If I feel accepted, if I feel like someone has my back, or at least someone understands me, that's basically what I need to start? So for me, that's the first thing. Find your people, start building a support network, and then talk about coming up.

Genevieve 16:07

I do have so many questions about your master's thesis that you mentioned. But to continue with that thought though, to start with who you feel you can trust, who is well intentioned, even if they don't understand. I think one of the beautiful things about having such international access to people is that there are so many online spaces where people coexist. A lot of them are very messy. A lot of like Reddit spaces or Facebook groups. I'm like, you know, enter also risk, aware, they might tell you terrible advice. And yes, I've, I've seen people, even in, like, my own Instagram posts, like in the comments section, start to support each other and then maybe direct message each other and become friends that way. And so, like, even if there's not a polyamorous meetup or something like that, which most major cities do have them, if there are at least one person online who you think gets it, and you could text when you're having a bad day, because they're looking for you too. They also need support.

Jaime Gama 17:06
Exactly we're looking for each other. That's what both don't understand. All of us need support desperately,

Genevieve 17:12
yeah, to take that leap of faith, because why not? Right? It can start that small. That community is built. It is not necessarily just found

Ishik 17:21
I do. I can't help anymore. I have to ask more about your master's thesis. If so, if I heard you correctly, you said it was polyamory amongst so go ahead.

Jaime Gama 17:36

So basically, my master's was finding out what helps gay cisgender men who identify as polyamorous to have a successful, happy polyamorous relationship. Like, what gets in the way? My hypothesis was that masculinity made it really hard for them to actually create a non hierarchical polyamorous relationship, because, like, even as gay men who are monogamous, we very often fighting to see who is the man of the house. So having a lot of men together, I was thinking there's going to be a lot of masculinity issues of who is the alpha dog and who is not. Like I wanted to know what affected their happiness in polymers, relationships with my idea that was masculinity, but it was more community

Ishik 18:17

that's really interesting. And I mean, there is so much complexity in that, like the intersectionality of non monogamy, masculinity and homosexuality, sexuality in general, and we're talking about masculinity. You know, definitions of masculinity are not only personal to every individual person, but also are really shaped by time periods. Culture to culture can be really different. Like, I know, growing up, I'm half Turkish, my father's Turkish, and so we, I'd be in Turkey with him, and I would see him being very much a man's man, quote, unquote, right, while still engaging in Turkish cultural practices, right? So more specifically, like, he would go to events and and dance, you know, almost like be belly dancing, right? And that was, like, perfectly normal, even laudable. He was seen as, like a, oh, look at this guy. He's so confident with a confident dancer, right? And then I would go back as a kid and talk to other children in American schools and say, Oh yeah, my dad is a great belly dancer. And I would get mocked incessantly, yeah, for that. And say that that's like a feminine thing to do. So I think you know, was there any exploration of those kinds of cultural distinctions of masculinity in your thesis?

Jaime Gama 19:27

Yeah, I was just focused on Mexicans, like Mexican men from Mexico City, in a very specific economic bracket, the expectations of a Mexican Macho Man. Mostly it would be characteristics of dominance, of power, of also not being vulnerable, but being more independent, like all those things, that basically is disconnecting from who I am and from who I want to be with, because a masculine man doesn't need anybody or anything. That's the concept that I have for that type of masculinity.

Ishik 19:59

Yeah. It's funny too, that that's the framework that's being explored. I've seen some of your content online, right? And I've definitely seen featured pretty prominently in the backgrounds of a lot of your videos are a lot of like Sailor Moon and like magical girl anime stuff.

Jaime Gama 20:19
As he sips from his Sailor Moon cup,

Ishik 20:24

But I will say that I think it's pretty fair to say that the genre, the Magical Girl genre, is pretty feminine coded, yeah. And I think it's, you know, a common experience for a lot of men and boys to be told that liking feminine things is like, quote, unquote, gay, right? Did you have a lot of that experience? Is that something that you had growing up as well? And do you feel like your appreciation today for more feminine media or esthetics is in any way tied to your sexuality? Or do you feel like these are totally separate things that, like you are gay man, and then separately you like this other stuff.

Jaime Gama 21:05

Yeah, I love magical girls stuff. I said everyone, I have all these collectible things. And when I was little, I really, really wanted them, but it's for girls. So this one time I remember my I told my mother finally, like, I want one of these, like little houses with sitter characters, and I got it, and I had it in my room, and anytime my friends came over, I would take it and take it to my sister's room, and then when they were gone, I would take it back. And this one time I forgot to take it to my sister's room, and my friend comes over, and it's like, what is this? And I said, Oh, it's, it's my sister's and my sister, who's married, as she was like, Yes, it is. Can I want to play with it? And I'm like, No, remember, you're grounded. You can't play with that specific toy. So that was like, me trying to hide it all the time. And the first time, told my mother, I want to play with one of those. I was so nervous. I was like, should I think I'm gay? She thinks I'm wrong. And I went over, I said, I like that doll. And my mom was like, I know what you're gonna say. I was like, and then she said, You're in love with Sailor Moon. I was like, yep. Like, she's so hot. Oh, my God, it's not that I want to be her, but yeah. So I got by, like, doing those kind of things as I was growing up. But I do think that as queer people, LGBTQ, plus people, we don't fit in the vanilla, heterosexual, monogamous world, and that opens up the possibility of saying, Well, you know, I'm already coming out as gay. Half a family is not going to talk to me anymore already, and people are going to bully me because I like having sex with men. I might as well just see what else I like, and then little by little to explore. Right now I get my nails done, and I haven't had like undone nails in like three years when I can, I let myself explore more. I'm already non conforming, so might as well do my nails.

Ishik 22:58
I do hate to totally shift topics off of this right now, but I, I'm, but I'm going to. you did bring up kink a number of times, and it was something that I wanted to ask more about, because I, you know, obviously a lot of gay or just generally, queer communities have a lot of overlap with kink, and I think a lot of people can begin their exploration of non monogamy through kink spaces. I know, myself included, right? So when you were first exploring, or even today, you know, how do you see there being a link between your exploration of kink and your exploration of non monogamy?

Jaime Gama 23:39

Absolutely, it's so linked. It's the first time I went to a kink event. Was two years ago in LA and I had just come out of a very abusive relationship, and it was just connected to part of my identity, and I was very broken. So I get to this place, and there's this hotel full of people, of kingsters, and I'm on my own. Suddenly someone starts talking to me, and they are accepting, so accepting, and there's this culture of consent. I remember the person who's now the satellite person. I met him that day. At one point, he texted me and said, Hey, you want to come up for cuddles? Just cuddles. And I was like, please, I know what that means. And I was very not in a sexual place. So I go to his room, and I open the door, and I see him in bed, and he's like, come over. So I lay in his stomach, and he starts doing this to my head and just touching my arms very nicely, very non sexual in a traditional way. For like, an hour and a half, I was in heaven. And then he said, and I want you to know that I don't need sex as payment for this. If you want this, you will get it from me. It blew my mind. So started to meet more people, and. Then this specific person, he has a molecule of like 15 people. Oh, my God, and I'm part of that now, but when I met them all, he has this huge, like living room with a huge couch. And I get there at one point, and it's his husband and his boyfriend and his boyfriend's boyfriend and this other person, and they're all connected in many ways. And there I am being my small self, and I'm just looking at them, and I fall asleep, and when I woke up, they were all looking at me, and I was like, What did I do? And they're like, Oh, you're just very cute when you sleep. Oh. And I was like, I feel so safe in this environment to explore who I am. Everything is upfront, everything is verbal, everything is explicit for a non monogamous relationship to be functional, you need a lot of that. Nothing can be implicit. You can assume anything. All the agreements have to be talked about and reviewed and revised all the time. Consent is very important. There's steps to all these things. And if I'm conscious and aware and I consider you it's just a very safe space.

Ishik 26:04

Yeah, that's so awesome. And I agree completely the deliberateness with which people approach any kind of relationships in kink is super like it can just transfer over so well to any kind of a non monogamy context. Yeah, that there's no assumptions. Yes, it's incredible. It's one of the biggest things that makes me feel so tied to the king community, even when I'm not actively participating in kinked activities. You know, it still feels like a big part of me, because that's where those habits and those patterns of being really communicative about any kind of sexual, romantic, emotional connection that was born from that place, and I practice it every day now in all of my relationships. So yeah,

Genevieve 26:49

I think one thing that, like, I don't know if you get this reaction, if you talk about going to a kink space or some kind of like kink plus sexual environment, how wholesome they are. But then, like, people who aren't in that world will just, like, make it so scandalous. And I'm like, but it's, it's cute, like, you're saying, like, there's like, saying how cute you are when you sleep, and that there's no shoulds like, you don't have to do anything. You can show up and have a snack and hang out by the wall and, like, just talk with other like minded people and or participate in some parts of sensuality. And it doesn't have to be on this escalator of like, well, we're cuddling. That has to lead to, we know it can just be cuddling. Oh, wait, this is nice. Maybe I can relax. And, you know, there's no obligation and how we're leaving it is when there's no shoulds or must. And I think that's also how we can, you know, Spot people in polyamorous spaces, but also in kink spaces, that if they're saying, you know, you should be comfortable with this, or hurry up and get with it, like, if you're gonna be good at kink or good at polyamory, you should this or that that's, I'm like, this is the inverse of what we're supposed to have happen. So little flag there of rushing people or forcing people

Jaime Gama 28:01 

huge red flag.

Genevieve 28:13

There's so much conversation around how we frame sex and what import we put on sex and what message we take away like if they're having sex with someone else, then what does it? What does that say about me? What does that say about us? You know, my my desirability, our stability, you know,

Jaime Gama 28:30

yeah, I have a story about that. So my first boyfriend, a polymer relationship. He had a lot of friends he had sex with, and I did not understand it. And then I said, I need you to explain what that looks like, so I don't know what that is. And he's like, Well, they're my friends. We hang out, we go see movies, we play games, we have sex. I love them. And I was like, that's a boyfriend. I'm sorry, but all those things you do with me, so they're your boyfriends. And he was like, No, it's a different relationship. It may look similar, but it's not the same. And I said, I don't want you to tell me anything about these people. I don't want to know their names, their faces, nothing. And he said, Okay, so then one day we go to the gym, and as we're leaving the gym, this person really like muscular, manly pantso man comes up to him. He's like, Hey, how are you? I haven't seen you in a while. My ex just freezes. And I'm like, what is happening? And then I choose myself. We leave, we're in the car, and I say, what was that? And then he goes, I don't know what to do, so I either lied to you or I break our agreement. And I didn't realize that I put him in that position because that was one of his sex friends, and he didn't have a choice. He had to be dishonest with me either way. And I realized that there's a different conversation, which is this, like, what is sex to you? How do you live that sexual life, that connection? And I don't understand it, so I need you to explain it to me, because I've never lived a life where sex is allowed between. Friends, it's only for partners. So I need to understand your world, because it's not mine. I'm looking at your world from my glasses, and that's very threatening, because if I did it, it would be a partner.

Genevieve 30:10
Did you feel like you were able to get to a different perspective? Yeah,

Jaime Gama 30:13

no, totally. It was beautiful work. It was so much with him. He's again, amazing, wonderful. What we did is I started exploring that with him, like just learning the way he connected sexually with people who were not romantically involved with him. And then I was like, I want to try it, but I am afraid. I don't know how to do it. And then I tried it, and then I was like, I I get it. I understand. I'm not a big fan. I don't necessarily like do it all the time, but now I know what your world is like. It still takes a little time, but yeah, I think I understand it better.

Genevieve 30:49
Now there is a person, there is a person I'm close to who feels the describes themselves as demisexual, that it really has to be emotionally significant for them to desire sex, and one of their partners views sex and experiences sex more as like a sport, whereas, like, we're gonna go, we're gonna go play a game together for a few hours, and I'm gonna come back. You know, it's like, that carefree and that playful, and doesn't have to carry that weight. And she said once she started seeing it as like, Oh, they're going to go, you know, play soccer together, you know, like, and it kind of even made when she was visualizing, because those intrusive thoughts where you can't get the image out of your head, you know, she was like, that actually was less threatening to me when I started to understand how they are approaching it, even though that would not be how I approach it, you know, I love that, yeah, yeah. So I think this is really integral work in non monogamy. Is this question of, What does sex mean? What significance do I feel it has? It's really complex work that can't happen quickly.

Jaime Gama 31:53

Yeah, in my case, I've always had an issue with jealousy. You know, yes, I'm in a polyamorous relationship, but I'm jealous. I explore it, I work with it through therapy, but it's a process. Because I think everybody talks about that like, that's the first thing people put like, as a question. Like, but what about jealousy? And that was my question too. I had experienced jealousy as something that a, I'm not supposed to feel. B, if I feel it, I have to push it away immediately or make it go away somehow. This workshop and this article about how jealousy is my friend, very annoying friend. I hate him. When I don't listen to them, they will just insist and scream at me. You know, they're very uncomfortable, since

Genevieve 32:37

jealousy is such an umbrella term that can cover like fear, insecurity, anger, grief. How would you say that those tensions have been coming up for you, like, what sub feelings have been encompassed in the jealousy, and is it different than it used to be? So

Jaime Gama 32:56

when Marco went out for the first time with someone, it just it destroyed me. He walked out the door, and I started crying and crying for like two hours, and I could not stop. I felt like the world had ended. And when he came back, I was like, I don't I can't do this. If I'm gonna feel this every time you leave, I can't do it. But and my very particular case, I realized that my jealousy comes from a fear of disappearing. So in my head, my problem is, if you go with someone else, you'll forget that I exist, and that's terrifying for me, which also stems from my own experience, because I ADHD autistic person, my emotional object permanence are very, very fragile. So if I don't see you, you don't exist, and I don't want that to happen to you about me. And once I understood that I was like, I I don't care so much that you share some things with this person, sexually, romantically or something, as long as I feel secure that I don't disappear for you doesn't make me mad, doesn't make me sad, I'm not frustrated, I'm not envious, I'm just very scared when I understood that most of my jealousy work with my partners is focused on that specific thing. Whenever you do this thing, I need some sign that I haven't disappeared from your life.

Genevieve 34:19

I love that, that in getting more specific about what's behind the jealousy, now you have something actionable, like, now that I know that this thing specifically is what I need, some care and reassurance around, and then it becomes a bit less of like this daunting. How do I just stop being jealous? No. How do I get reminded that I'm safe and not disappearing? Yeah? 

Ishik 34:40

I mean, yeah, one of the things that you know jumps out very clearly was that there was an internal experience that you were having, you know, that was the the genesis of those feelings of jealousy, and then there was maybe some action that they were taking that was triggering those internal feelings. But then when it came time to find a solution. And for that jealousy or a way to cope with it, it wasn't your your fault or their fault. It was, how do we do this together? Right? And so I think for people who have that impression of it's either their partner's fault or their metaphor or entirely their own responsibility, and and they're really stuck in that kind of binary thinking. Do you have any suggestions about how to help get to a more collaborative teamwork approach to resolving jealousy?

Jaime Gama 35:28

Yeah, there's a few things that I usually say. The first thing comes to my mind when you say, like, it's all my responsibility. I should not be feeling jealous. I should be more independent. I don't know, and I just when I go to that point, I remind myself that if it really was entirely my responsibility, I would have fixed it already, because I would have that much power, which is also very absurd. I don't have enough power in my relationship to actually control the entire thing, so that everything is about me. So that relaxes me a little bit, saying it's not just about me, my partner's contributing to this some in some way. The second part is knowing that being careful with attacking verbally my partner. There's people who think that violent communication is always like yelling or insulting, and a lot of violent communication comes from interpretation or blaming, and it's just part of the language in a way that they didn't even notice. So the first time that Marco was late, we weren't even open. He was late to come home. I was again, in my head, I was like, he had sex with someone, and it's just I was going crazy. He walked in the door. He said, How are you? And I'm like, I'm not well, I am not well, and I want to ask you for help to process this. But the first thing I want to tell you is, one, this is not about you. Two, at the moment, I don't care what happened if it did or did not. Will not change my feelings at the moment. Three, I am not blaming you, and it's very important for me that you don't feel blamed or held responsible for my feelings at this moment, if you can do this, I would like you to listen to me and hear what I need from you at the moment. If you cannot, that's perfectly fine, and regulate myself until we can talk about it. And he said, I can do that. What's wrong? And I started crying, and I was like, think you slept with someone and you betrayed me, and you don't like me. And I just went all in and because he knew that I wasn't blaming him, I wasn't saying that he was an unfaithful bastard who was just betraying me. It's my feelings, it's my head, he was able to sit with me and just see the movie with me and just go, I understand why you feel this way. I get it. That moment of empathy always brings me back to reality. But I think that a lot of the times me presenting my feelings to you without being careful of my narrative, especially because we tend to just, like, blame each other, and that's just the way we communicate. When I tell you what is why I'm feeling, and I don't consider how you're feeling about my feelings, then it escalates and explodes.

Genevieve 38:10

I love that, like, sort of distinguishing the story that your brain is telling you, which may or may not like which it seems to be up for debate. Usually, we need everybody's input before we land on what actually is true. But yeah, also distinguishing that from the emotions, which are very real, and separating those consciously stops from feeling like you're blaming like my mind is telling me you did this and that and that, even just like that small rhetorical, like framing, can make someone less defensive and on your team, stay on your team, so it's the two of you versus the problem, rather than versus each other.

Jaime Gama 38:53

It sounds simple, but in the heat at the moment, it's really hard, and I can't always do it when I'm not in that conflict between my partners and I'm like, when I feel this way, I don't think you would hurt me like I always go from the standard of good faith. I don't think my partners want to hurt me ever they will, and they do. There's mistakes, there's incompatibilities, there's things that happen, and that's okay. I'm not blaming you for this pain. I don't believe you want to hurt me from there. Let's start discussing with my lungs, disparate, for example, wanted to explore an open relationship on his side. And then I said, Okay, yes. I said a few things that I usually need. This is all negotiable, but this is what usually helps me feel secure in the relationship. But then some other things happened in my life, very specific, that just drained all my energy, emotional, just my health took a better turn. I stopped seeing clients. At the moment, I have no clients. I'd stop all the processes to deal with this thing that I'm dealing with. And last Saturday, I said, this, you having other people and just. Exploring, because you don't know exactly what that looks like. It's making me very anxious, and it's taking a lot of energy that I don't have at the moment, so I need to talk about this to make it more secure for me. And then he said, What if I don't go out with other people, like sexually or romantically while we do this? And I stopped, and I said, but it feels like I'm controlling you and manipulating you. I can't ask you for that. He said, I don't feel controlled. I don't feel manipulated. And I want to do this. Why don't you trust that I will tell you what I want, what I need, which is a moment of me saying that's true. You're not a child, and you are also an adult who can make their own choices, and you can say no if you don't like it, I want to trust your yes, so I trust you. No. I also realized that a lot of people don't talk about freedom. They very rarely talk about the freedom to decide not to do something, the freedom to decide to stop something. And so I said, Okay, I would like to close the relationship again while i deal with this. It's not forever. I want to give you a month until I see you again. During this month, I went to therapy with a psychiatrist. I went with a grief therapist. Like I'm doing all of these things, and I will work my insecurities of our relationship in these processes to leave my priority at the moment. And he said, Yep, let's do it, and it was incredible. 

Ishik 41:23

also think it's really always nice to hear these kinds of real world examples of how we apply our ideologies and our, you know, our belief systems to our relationships, right? Because it's all well and good when people are like white room theory crafting, about, you know, this is, like, the ethical way to do things. And then then there's the reality of, like, this is the real world. Shit happens, right? Like, we have struggles, we have financial issues, we have pain and suffering and loss and, like, all this other stuff. And like, sometimes when that meets the theory, like we need to, you know, act appropriately, right? And I think that at that point that trust that you're talking about is the foundational thing that really makes that function.

Genevieve 42:15
Thank you so much for joining us today, Jaime. Where can people find you online?

Jaime Gama 42:21

So people can find me again the contents in Spanish, but you can find me as gotitas de poliamor, which means polyamory drops. If you Google my name, you'll find me Jaime Gama on Tiktok on Instagram. I'm not currently taking new clients, but I do like one off consultations in English and in Spanish. So if you're if you need help, or you need someone to talk to about this, or you want to find a community, you can find me, and there's my Calendly thing. You can schedule a session, and we can talk about it well,

Genevieve 42:50

and you can find more from me on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory, where I create and share short form videos and resources for anyone interested in non monogamy. I've also recently started a YouTube channel where I post video essays on film and TV representations of non monogamy, breaking that down. And I do have a patreon where I offer bonus long form in depth, deep dives, as well as one on one peer support. So if you're looking for any additional support with non monogamy and you like me and what I have to say. Chillpolyamory.com

Ishik 43:23
thanks again. So much. Jaime, it's been wonderful, and to all of our listeners as always, just

know just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it.

Genevieve 43:39

If you like the show and want to support us. You can rate and review it on Spotify and Apple podcast. It really helps new people find us as well. If you want to financially help out, this show is mostly funded by patreon.com/chillpolyamory.