Genevieve  0:07  

Welcome to I could never a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from Chill Polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, and I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, ishik. You are joined by me. I'm here. I'm feeling really good. So today we're gonna be chatting with two metamours. If that is a new term for you, a metamour is basically just the partner of your partner. It's a kind of relationship that can look a lot of different ways. So I wanna show a lot of different examples. I reached out to my following on Instagram and got some great responses from people. So today I am happy to welcome our first pair of metamours, Robert and Jacob. Hi, hi, Genevieve, hi Ashok. Hey, welcome, yeah. So as we understand it, Jacob, your writer and Robert, you are social scientists, and both of you are focused on exploring topics of gender and justice and politics based in Canada. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Well, I'm excited to learn all about it, but first we gotta do some vibe reven. You come to me here on the day of my daughter's wedding. What accent is that? It's very exciting to do an authentic, a Sicilian.

Ishik  1:23  

And you come to me about Vibe or vent Yeah, it's vibe or vent time. Time for any new listeners who aren't familiar, we have an icebreaker where we each go around and either talk about something that we are happy about, that's bringing us a lot of joy, or something that is pissing us off. That fucking sucks, because the world is hard, and we need to vent about it. So Genevieve, you start us off, sure. Well, I am vibing today. I am close with this woman who's she's just rad. She's a community organizer, and we were talking about how to put on events and host spaces that everybody feels welcome, and I just love that I have friends that I can talk to about that and that we both are invested in bringing people together. And I also was thinking back on when I met her, and it was almost 15 years ago on Tumblr, so I'm dating myself a little bit, but it was just like a really organically grown friendship that is still maintained and closer than never today. So yeah, I'm vibing about that I love that I didn't expect it, but I'm glad it's in my life. So Robert, I would love to know what's on your mind. Are you vibing, or are you venting today? I am very much vibing.

Robert  2:42  

I've just moved out of the house that Jacob and I were cohabiting in, and I've been thinking a lot about this conversation and just feeling like it's, I'm sure we'll get into the details about our cohabitation and friendship and stuff, but it seems like, in some ways, this wonderful celebration of the last two years together. So I'm kind of vibing with all that I love that that's awesome. Well, I'd love to throw it over. Jacob. Jacob, are you vibing? Are you venting today? I'm gonna vibe, even though there is so much to vent about in the world right now,

Jacob  3:11  

I have had the really cool opportunity over the last couple of weeks, while I've been out visiting west coast of Canada to spend a lot of time with very close friends kids. That kind of time building those relationships with little ones, has been incredibly meaningful for me. It's kind of surprised me the extent to which it's been meaningful and impactful. I've really loved every second of that, even the hard moments. Kids are really cool and that you're like, really in it. It's super present, and moods change so fast, but you can go from really tough moment to a really beautiful one in the blink of an eye. I've loved witnessing that and being a part of that in this friend's life. Yeah, beautiful. I also super relate with my niece and nephew and like, yeah, even those hard moments are really impactful. So I definitely feel you on that. And you know what? I'm gonna go ahead and close this out as a rare all vibes episode. We're all vibe

Speaker 1  4:13  

because I'm also vibing, and it's a little this is another one of my, like, slightly odder vibes, because it's, like, based out of a kind of not so fun place, but like I've talked before on the show about being a gamer, and I have been playing hardcore World of Warcraft for a couple of months now. And essentially the idea being that if you die, you die, it's done, right? Your character is done. That's it. And last night, my character died from a stupid mistake. On my part, that sucks, but having encountered so many other people who've had that happen to them, where their characters die, and it's like this pretty, like crushing moment, because there's this feeling of like loss. And I'm like, Oh, my God, hundreds of hours or 1000s for some people have just dumped down the fucking train, I felt surprisingly like, Okay. About it. There's definitely a version of me in the past where I would have been really self flagellating. Can't believe I did that you're so stupid ish, and so like, seeing that growth in myself is really a positive feeling. And also I was just like super filled with a lot of gratitude in the moment of my life, and how full it feels all of my friendships and relationships, it came to my mind very quickly.

Ishik  5:24  

He came out of the room so happy and glowing. And I was like, whoa. What happened? He's like, my character is gone. I was like, you say more? I don't I don't understand. And even you were like, oh

no, oh no. And I was like, yeah,

Genevieve  5:39  

yeah,

Speaker 1  5:40  

we can get to the good stuff, which is getting to know our wonderful guests. So if each of you could tell us a bit about how you know your relationships look, how your relationship structures look, what non monogamy means to you personally, why don't we go ahead and start with Jacob.

Jacob  5:58  

Yeah, happy to I think I'll start off by saying it looks very different than it did at the beginning of my non monogamous journey. At this point, I think the closest thing that is maybe commonly recognized as a label to what I'm doing is relationship anarchy. I can't say I love it as a label, to be honest, but something I really love about this approach to non monogamy is it actually de hierarchize is, I don't think that's a word, but

Ishik  6:27  

it is. Now it's, that's, that's the new word.

Jacob  6:29  

Okay, it is now it does, flattens the hierarchy. What that looks like is, I get to make my own choices about who I'm in relationship with. So does everyone else, friendships have really been the relationships that have proven some of the most lasting and strongest and most supportive. I would say that I am in love with many of my friends. I don't just love them. I'm in love with them, and I feel that back. And that doesn't necessarily mean that there's any sort of romance or sex. It just means that I think the depth of feeling that I have is really able to be the same for those people as it is for a lover, for a romantic partner. And so that's my feeling. Yeah.

Genevieve  7:13  

I love the fluidity of that. And being in love with your friends, something I relate to as well. Yeah. So I'd love to hear Robert as well what your non monogamy looks like at the moment, and then how it also relates to Jacob.

Robert  7:26  

In my case, non monogamy is a relatively newer thing, and it's really only over the past two years and change that non monogamy has really come to be a significant part of my life. Prior to that, a lot of my experience with non normative relationship structures came by way of kink, which, which I have a lot longer kind of experience with. And I would describe my non monogamy right now as as being, you know, non hierarchical. I have a partner that I share with Jacob, or however that might be phrased, but we'll be referring to her as T I'd say that without necessarily delving so much into the theory to the extent that I might otherwise, I've kind of found this sort of organic formation practicing what I think most people would identify or characterize as relationship anarchy to be really liberating.

Speaker 1  8:24  

And I, you know, I would say, you know, to kind of bring it over to Jacob, you kind of hinted at things maybe not going so smoothly at the at the start, when you were first exploring non monogamy. So I would love to hear more about that in general, but also kind of what was sort of the draw of non monogamy for you initially.

Jacob  8:45  

So I'm a bit of a slut. I'm very comfortable with that, and I think, like 10 years ago, I'd ended a multi year relationship with someone I was living with at quite a young age, I was figuring out a lot about myself. I was exploring my sexuality and in the process of coming out as queer, and I was enjoying a lot of new relationships. So one was I not I was going to say fell in love with, fell in lost with. I really liked a exchange student who was visiting from Sweden, and I kind of shared that with her, and she said, Well, I don't actually believe in sexual monogamy, so if you're okay with that, then we can, like, explore something here. And I remember my mind being kind of blown by that. The other thing that happened around that same time, which coincides, well, I had a friend who was like, Hey, I think you should read the ethical slut. And I was like, There's a book called The ethical slut. So I read that book. And I was like, my life could be so different. But it wasn't actually until I met he two years after that, maybe a little bit less, and he had. Recently ended a five year monogamous relationship five days before we went on our first date. And on our first date, I was like, This is it. I am like, I've I've been dating a lot. And I was like, There's something really, really special here. I really want to connect with this person. And she was like, by the way, I'm not interested in starting any new relationships right now, and I just ended this one, and I was like, Well, I read this book this one time, and she'd happened to be also in the process of exploring her own sexuality, and that was like of interest to her, and she was aware of non monogamy to some extent before that. So the entire relationship that we built was on a foundation of non monogamy nine and a bit years ago.

Genevieve  10:50  

I imagine. I mean, so much can happen in a decade. I would be, I would be really interested to learn a little bit more about what your relationship was like back then and how maybe it's changed or looks different today.

Jacob  11:04  

For a few of those years, the first few, actually, we cohabitated. We first identified as, like primary partners in a hierarchical structure. We evolved to a place that, I think actually we said we were non hierarchical, but we were really actually still practicing hierarchical polyamory. And t and I had been in a relationship with someone else together that had been really intense and great for the time that it lasted, and when it ended, we were both quite heartbroken. And I think for me and for actually, for both of us, what that relationship had been doing for the time that it lasted was filling a lot of the gaps where we weren't meeting each other's needs, and when it ended, we really were able to see that well maybe we weren't, at the time, it just was gone, and we had all these gaps exposed where we were had expectations or obligations of each other that we weren't able or even wanting to live up to when we stopped living together, but decided and like committed to still being in familyship is what I like to call it. And in partnership, we really let each other be the people that we are. We love each other like deeply and dearly, and we know we'll be in each other's lives for the rest of our lives.

Genevieve  12:25  

I love hearing about that arc, because I do think it is a common one, at least in terms of the concept of hierarchy. When you realized, oh, wait, we're saying we're not doing it, but we're kind of doing it. Do you have any examples of like, what you realized you were doing and then what you did to try and let go of it?

Jacob  12:47  

Good question. I remember a really tired conversation where I shared with you like, I want to fall in love again. I want to feel a certain type of care and affection that I don't necessarily feel like I'm getting in the quantity or volume that that I want, and that being a really tough, tough moment. And I Hi, I met someone, and I think did fall in love quite quickly. That was at a different pace than T was moving through, and that really created rupture and tension in our relationship. Me trying to balance, like truly being in love with two people, as opposed to having some relationships that were, you know, close friendships and play partnerships, but not with the same level of intensity, managing a certain level of emotional depth and intensity, and not in my I guess, in my opinion, not doing a great job at that at the time. I think that really forced t and I to do a lot of unpacking of how we had been showing up to whip for each other previously, and that actually that other relationship, which I'm no longer in, but lasted for five years, was really a catalyst for the perspective shift that led us to be where we are now.

Robert  14:10  

Rob, when did you and T first get together? Then she messaged me. I think she just opened up a FET account for

the listeners. That's a fat life account, yeah.

So I'd been kind of exploring especially Shabari, and it was something that was really meaningful to me for kind of personal reasons, for comparative reasons, to some degree. And so I'd been tying friends in the basement with the person I was cohabitating with, as we were kind of drifting apart, moving toward separation. And the partner of one of the people I was tying that T had become friends with, and he recommended me as somebody who was getting into interested in shibari, and so she messaged me on FET and we kind of connected. And it was two days after. Or i The Breakup had finally taken place and been, like, officially articulated with me and this other person, we're still living together. And so I meet with T for drinks and oysters, and she was asking me a little bit about my dynamics. And I'm like, Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. I just, I just had a breakup two days ago. And she was like, Oh, do you want to, like, talk about that or anything. I was like, keep it together. Keep it together together. Yeah. No, no, I'm good. I like, you know, things are things are amicable. I'm doing fine. And lo and behold, you know, there was great chemistry, mutual attraction and and it wasn't too long before we were tying together, initially, in a really connected, kind of caressing style. It was at that point where she was planning to move back to the West Coast within about six months, and we were kind of like faced with this question, like, Okay, this is growing, but we know that we're not going to live with one another. I, at the time, was still actually living with who is now kind of my ex. So what are we gonna do? Are we gonna, like, keep this casual surface level, or why don't we just go all in and enjoy the time that we have, making every single meeting, every single kind of moment count while we still had it, and kind of leaving the what to do later, up to what developed from that. That's what we decided to do, is just sort of explore as deeply as we wanted to and as felt right, and that continued to deepen and deepen, knowing that we had no intentions to be living anywhere near one another like it's about a five hour flight apart, and that was one of the best decisions of my life. I love that willingness to really jump in, you know, for something that you are feeling is right and not kind of prescribing to this idea that not living together or not living even in the same same time zone,

Ishik  17:00  

that that doesn't have to be a deal breaker.

Genevieve  17:03  

Yeah, I'm also really curious. Like, at what point did you and Jacob wind up meeting? Like, how did, how did that happen?

Robert  17:10  

I met Jacob when I was invited to my second ever Passover dinner, which Jacob was hosting. It was this wonderful radical, progressive version of Passover. And I was kind of curious how that would go. I'd not really met a partner of someone I was seeing, you know, with this level of depth before, and it was such an important thing for him organizing this Passover, he was in like a blazer and and was had this, like, positive nervous energy, and was like, super accommodating and friendly, which I didn't not expect, but it was just like, kind of the warmth that he brings to, like every relationship that I was like, Oh, this is, this is what it means to just show up in true support of of your partner and in and in openness to a poly dynamic. You know, all of that ended up precipitating how he and I ended up living together. I guess I

Ishik  18:02  

like that. By the way, radical Passover sounds fun as hell. Bring us from radical Passover to the two of you living together.

Jacob  18:09  

I love when Rob shares real anecdotes, because sometimes I don't remember them, and it reminds me, and I get these like warm, fuzzy feelings, because it brings up the memories that I just didn't even have there, but, like, it was pretty soon after that. This was, like, spring a few years ago, and my partner at the time, H and I had been living together in a Airstream trailer for the last, like, year and a half, and we had as far as sharing a 22 foot long space, really maxed out that living arrangement and needed a change. And it was pretty soon after that that Tia and I were in the process of attempting to sell our house as she prepared to move back to the West Coast. And so we had sold our house, and then the house sale fell through, and we were like, uh, what do we do now? For some reason, the solution that came to mind was it was like, Well, what if my partner, H and I moved into the house that I'd, you know, a few years ago, moved out of and then we also got a roommate to help offset the costs of that. Rob and I had only met a few times still at the time, and I was like, Hey, do you think Rob would want to move in with me and H and VR be our roommate?

Robert  19:34  

Yeah, that was, that was an interesting moment, right? Because, because I was now living in, like, the guest room of my ex partner, you know, feeling pretty down on everything, aside from this one new relationship I had. And then she says, at some point, she's like, Hey, how would you like to, like move into my how like to my room? When, when I'm, you know, when I move out? And as far as, as far as I knew, Jay. Aside from a handful of these meetings, he's just like, this mystery guy who lives in this cool trailer and travels around. And I'm like, Yeah, fuck it. Let's, let's give that a try.

Speaker 2  20:20  

Yeah, I wanted to ask, you know, many anarchists or people that are invested in anti hierarchical, non monogamy, are also very invested in building community and group collaboration. And I'm just curious if that is a part of your life, if you have the time or energy, or if it's much more deepening rather than broadening, your connections,

Jacob  20:44  

there's definitely some overlap in a lot of the worlds that lots of people I engage with, lots of my friends, lots of my lovers know each other, and I think that's one of the reasons why relationship anarchy is what I practice today, rather than what I maybe used to do, more of what I see other people doing, which I think is like, more like rigid structures. But from building a collective dynamic, I love when that happens, naturally or organically. I certainly in my life place no pressure on that occurring, there's a part of me that craves that. You know, we all live in tiny homes, that our own homes in the future, and like we're a bunch of friends and people who really care about each other, but when I try and think about how to actually do that logistically, it just feels like a fuck ton of labor that I actually don't want to take on, and I'd rather, I think, just focus more on the deepening of individual relationships, the supporting of the relationships I'm in of those people and their other relationships, and not actually focus on this community or collective perspective too much. So that's my feeling.

Robert  22:01  

I think that when it comes to community, I would say that that's in my experience, what has brought this particular dynamic together. You know, it was by way of my connections and friendships and community with people around kink that led me to connect and be involved in this whole community around poly, one of the catalysts for a lot of this happening was our house. In a lot of ways, it became a place where we were able to host play parties and things like that, and the planning of those and the and having the privilege of, you know, a private space for creating these spaces for community to form. But like, even in just like, group chats that we have that have, like, you know, queer, kinky poly folks in their 40s through to their early 20s, like, able to be in just light conversation, able to do everything from fundraise, if someone D, if somebody needs some support, to just pose questions about their own identity, How they're navigating things and have elders and, you know, so to speak, in the community or like, like, you know, people with some extra experience kind of weigh in and offer that kind of support, um, you know, share how and where it gets better. Like, that knowledge is, like, hard earned in individual ways. And when we find one another, I think the constellation of of all of these knowledges, ends up creating magic, and the payoff is just so extraordinary, and it makes me very hopeful for the potential futures that we could realize together. Yeah,

Ishik  23:31  

I I love that. I love how we take care of each other, and we're fucking good at it.

Genevieve  23:40  

You know, Rob, I wanted to ask so you touched on kink a bit when you were talking about that to the extent that you're comfortable, would you share a bit more about your personal connection to kink? Yeah,

Robert  23:50  

I think that kink relative to non monogamy, was kind of my first inroad to thinking about how relationships need not necessarily be exclusive and and also how pleasure, desire, connection can be expressed in intimacy can be expressed in such a wide range of ways. One of the, you know, one of the first munches I went to, I was, I remember, you know, being close to blown away by when, when somebody said that they were asexual, and that kink and BSM for them wasn't a sexual act, and that they didn't really relate in that way, and and that was kind of the opening to realizing how broadly we can express and practice our desires, how we can experience pleasure, and so on and so forth and so Then, when it comes to non monogamy, I think that it's been a great primer for being mindful of positionality, of power dynamics that can emerge, aspects that are involved in a queer liberation project, a way to explore in my private life, a lot of things that have resonated with me that I would try to advocate in my public. And political life, kind

Speaker 1  25:01  

of jumping off of that as I understand it. You Robert, are pretty firmly identify as straight. Is that correct? Yeah, yeah. So as a straight cis guy navigating these spaces, being in group texts and communities of various sort, events and stuff with a lot of queer people, you know, it's very clear, as you are speaking about a lot of this, that you're very thoughtful and mindful about these systems and kind of your place in them. But you know, I'd love to hear if you've ever encountered or experienced like awkwardness or tension, or, you know, if people have perceived you potentially as a an unsafe person because of being a straight, cis guy, right? And how have you kind of navigated those situations to find equilibrium and everyone feeling good? Yeah, I've

Robert  25:51  

really taken a default attitude that these spaces are not necessarily designed for me, and they don't have to be about me, and that's okay. In more recent years, I think, like you know, I've been consistently felt really welcome in queer spaces. I think that my experience in grad school was was one where, I think, where people are exploring these kinds of ideas and are justifiably vigilant about the centrality of of straight, cis, white guys in these you know, it's important that in these spaces, you know, that they don't have to be centered around whiteness. They don't have to be centered around CIS heteronormativity. And so I view myself kind of as a guest in these spaces in some ways. And I take the kind of the welcoming into those spaces as being a thing that allows me to show up as I am and to participate in queer joy and hopefully contribute as I'm asked, you know, in ways that I'm asked to do, to participate in queer liberation.

Speaker 2  26:50  

I saw a Tiktok the other day that was sort of saying, sort of tying queer Liberation with men of any orientation, becoming friends with each other, because so much stigma gets put around softness or sharing of emotion, or, you know, fear of being associated with something, quote, unquote, feminine, or a fear of being perceived as queer. And so, yeah, that I had never heard it so succinctly linked before. But how an investment in queerness being normalized and accepted, and queer people being feeling free and safe can also help men of any orientation. You know,

Jacob  27:30  

one of the things that my friendship with Rob has really helped me unpack is I have always, you know, had trouble, I guess, like having deep friendships with other men, most of my close friendships have historically been with female identifying or people who basically are not cis men. And as a queer man, that like when I was coming out as queer, I started to really try and unpack that further. But you know, it was limited in my own progress and this opportunity to live with Rob, to be in relationship with someone where we have this mutual person, T in our life, who really supports both of us, even just having hard conversations when we've needed to have them, and the judgment free space that he's created, or the willingness to show up and go through that rupture repair cycle, willing to work on things with me, even when I've communicated really poorly. And for me, that's that's really contributed to my relationship to my own gender and my thinking about gender more broadly.

Robert  28:42  

Yeah, when I think about, like, how Jacob and I have shown up for one another, that comes up in small and and large ways, my own kind of slut phase, and, you know, after t moved away, Jacob was really supportive of that in a bunch of ways, where I've, like, come back from parties or from dates late at night, and like, I try to be as quiet as I can, but lo and behold, here hears me come in, like, four in the morning or whatever. I wake up to a text at like, 930 on a weekend, and he's like, Hey, I made you an omelet. It's outside your room. Like, I'm like, You made me a fucking omelet, like, is the nicest thing ever, and I think like, that kind of ways of like, showing up and encouraging one another's exploration just shows through in all of these ways.

Jacob  29:30  

Yeah, it's interesting. Just building on that, I think that I'd say we're very different people who ended up in a very unique circumstance because of this, this shared relationship, and in moments where you know tensions around our house or living arrangements, or just like differences in personality came up knowing that we have this, this person in common, who we both really care about and love deeply, and who is invested in each of our relationships and in some. Level, in that sense, invested in at least a sense of, like, mutual respect, and I think, supported the way we we show up, we have had the real benefit. And I'm super grateful to T about this of of having someone who, like, did a good amount put a good amount of time and energy labor into supporting us in our own friendship and relationship. And I think where I'm going with that is a lot a lot of the time emotional labor or support in navigating, you know, our own feelings, or men's feelings in general, falls on women unfortunately, or falls on on people who don't identify as men, very unfortunately, I don't think we're completely exempt from that. The last time that came up and Rob and I were sitting down and hashing something out, we were both able to reflect on when we do this, the two of us were actually supporting the people who support us by not asking them to do it for us, by not asking them to guide us in it. And that's meaningful to me. I'd

Robert  31:09  

also add to, like, I think that, you know, turning to tea kind of came a little bit later, after the wear and tear of cohabitation, kind of, you know, just builds up a little bit initially. You know, Jacob was a wonderful support when I was still getting to know her and and I remember asking him at one point, like, after she'd moved away, I'm like, Yeah, you know, like, I really, I really love this woman, like, I care about her. Like, I but I don't know how it's gonna go, like, if we're always living apart from one another. And Jacob, I remember you said to me, like, you're like, Look, I've known her for so many years now. And the thing you got to understand about her is, like, when you're in then, then you're in, when you're one of her people, you're there for life and and that kind of encouragement, you know, I think, is is unique, because it comes from a standpoint of knowledge. It comes out of the relationship that he and her have. The fact is, like, I mean, we were having a chat before the podcast, a little bit just to catch up and stuff and and T was on the call, and I was like, this is gonna probably end up as a love letter to You.

Speaker 2  32:19  

No, I'm curious. You mentioned that T moved away right when you moved in Robert. So both of you lived together, and both had long distance relationship with her. So a lot of times with long distance relationships, it can feel like you're binging a person when they come you know, it's like limited amount of time. And I'm curious with both of you wanting to see her and spend time together. How did that get negotiated? I'm

Jacob  32:46  

happy again. I'll go here, and I think it's actually a pretty easy and purely logistical answer. From my perspective, I had the benefit of working for myself from home on my own schedule, so I had a lot of flexibility as far as where I was and when I was there. Whereas Rob is a as a professor, he's on an academic schedule, and his availability and when he's able to travel is quite limited, and that, from my perspective, made it quite easy, like there's a lot of desire for Rob and T to have meaningful time together. Like I love seeing how happy their relationship makes both of them, and it felt easy to want to, you know, emphasize them having more time together, because I knew that was limited.

Robert  33:39  

I yeah, I mean, I think we both like try to consider what each of us has available in terms of time and access to space and things like that. The one thing that's been absent is any kind of possessiveness. You know, I think that is, I'd like to think a credit to like work that we've each done for ourselves. I think it's a credit to t as being someone who's kind of sharper than both of us as it is, and would you know, would have no peace in in being possessed in that way either I, I've heard about and talked to people who have tried to explore these things within different relationships, and it's often like a real struggle. Issues come up around possessiveness, around around, hierarchy finding its way and kind of perniciously. And I just look at my experience with both of them as being like the beneficiary of a lot of that stuff that that Jacob talked about earlier, a lot of the kinds of work the two of them have done with one another to kind of get to a point where I encounter just like what it looks like to be in a healthy poly relationship.

Speaker 1  34:44  

So yeah, I mean, it definitely sounds like, well, first off, I want to say that what I'm hearing a lot of is this idea that, like when people are coming in good faith with good intention, and not trying to win or get or, you know, be selfish with. Attention or love or what have you, creates a space where that those things can get fixed. But you know, in general, I think it's not always the case that people will love the partners of the people they love, right? Not everyone is that lucky or just just doesn't always come out that way. What kind of advice would you give to people who are in community with people that they don't always get along with. I

Jacob  35:24  

guess my advice is like, respect is different than liking or loving someone. And I think, I think in the way that Rob and T and I and our other partners practice non monogamy is there's no expectation that someone's going to like or want to hang out with, or, you know, want to even spend time with, in any capacity necessarily are other people, but there kind of is an underlying sense, I think, amongst all of us, of respect of each other's humanity and, you know, the The choices that we make with as far as who we're in relationship with, that we don't get to choose our people's people, but we we do get to choose how we interact with them, and respect at a bare minimum is like something that is really important to Me and how we go about that super grateful to have so much more than respect to to love Robin the way that I do. I wrote a cheesy poem A while ago, and there was a line about like, what it means to not choose your people's people, but to let them in anyway. And I think that's something that for Rob and I has actually come pretty naturally.

Robert  36:42  

Yeah,

I love you too, buddy. I think that the one of the other things that comes to mind is like, you know, Jacob mentioned it earlier, like, we're really, really different people. We're kind of photo negatives of one another in like, everything from, like, the way we like our coffee to just the way that we handle stressful situations, the way that we relate to confrontation and stuff like that. And by that, I don't even mean like with one another, but just in general, I like a bit of friction and that kind of thing, right? And I think that in that sense of how people sometimes compare themselves to one another, or the way that when people are kind of different from us, it can be difficult to relate. I think that one of the interesting things about the dynamic we have is the recognition of the fact that the things that make Jacob so different from me bring something distinct to tease life and that and that the relationship they have is is so distinct and has so much value in and of itself and that I can be satisfied in than what I bring as well. So rather than seeing it about like what I do when he doesn't, it's kind of what each of us kind of bring, and recognizing that uniqueness, less as a matter of that of that kind of one versus another, but but as a kind of complementarity. It can be fun sometimes in identifying differences as a way to see those things as as complementary, rather than as as dissonant. And then after that, then you can start planning road trips together, which kind of became like the big thing that that really bonded both of us. It was the thing that we were really looking forward to. We kind of resolved in that first summer after living together for a year, hey, let's let's do a road trip together and go visit tea. We planned it for months and and managed to pull it off.

Jacob  38:34  

What did we call it? Called it

Robert  38:36  

Polly rose hit the road, and we so cute, and we did, indeed, we drove through the states, and we were a little curious about how it would be received, but we got in some good conversations with people. Piqued some curiosity along the way. I

Genevieve  38:52  

can only imagine. Yeah, that's, I

Ishik  38:54  

guess, which state,

Jacob  38:56  

North Dakota. No,

Ishik  39:01  

I mean is, are there any like, particularly like, funny interactions that happened during the road trip, or was it pretty, just smooth sailing? I don't

Jacob  39:10  

know. I always think of this moment right at the beginning. We're still in front of the house, and we'd like told each other we were going to document this trip. You wanted to get all this footage, basically, and I'm like, putting the camera or phone in selfie mode and making us take a video. I'm like, Okay, it's Polly bros hit the road. Like, I don't know. I said something like, Rob, what do you have to say? It goes, hurry up. We're late. And it was, it was such, like, a accurate representation of the way we both show up and like it. Rob, you want to share something else? Yeah,

Robert  39:44  

like, so, Jacob's vegan, and I am most assuredly not. And so, so we decided to go to like, different fast food joints to get what we wanted. And it ended up taking a little longer. This whole kind of thing, we get in the we get in the car, we're on the road. And then Jacob. Of can't find us air pods.

Jacob  40:01  

I had gone while we were at separate fast food restaurants, because I really like cannabis. I'd gone, without telling Rob to a dispensary in Michigan and picked up some weed. We knew we were switching drivers. Rob was going to be driving the second half, and I gotten stoned. And I was like, keeping this as my little secret, and then I get in the car, and I'm like, I can't, we're pull out. We're on the highway, you know, two minutes. And I'm like, I can't find my air pods. And I start freaking out. And Rob's giving me, you know, a lot of generosity. And he's like, do you want me to go back? Do you want to, like, go through the garbage and

Robert  40:37  

and meanwhile, like, Jacob's like, obviously high in traffic and, and I know it's like a source platform. So I'm like, All right, all right, it's cool, but like, so, so then finally, I'm like, Is there anywhere else that you want to stop? Was there anywhere else you were, like,

Ishik  40:54  

we stop at the dispensary,

Robert  40:58  

just like, a couple more blocks this way. So we go, yeah, he's, like, smoked a joint in the parking lot, I guess, or something. Still can't find the fucking thing. And I kept being like, look, we're in Michigan. We got to get all the way across the country. Like, it's no big deal if we take like, an extra, you know, 45 minutes to do this. But lo and behold, can't find it. So we're we get to driving and and he's, like, kind of kicking himself. And I'm just like, I'm just gonna just have some quiet time. It's fine. And I'm drinking my, like, my soft drink from from the fast food restaurant, and drinking, I'm drinking, and I'm like, What the hell is in these American soft drinks? Like this is like, fucking sugar at the bottom. It's like, so heavy or something, or it's like, the syrup from it, because I'm finished it. And then I'm like, why is so heavy and underneath, stuck under, like wedged into the bottom of the soft drink cup, are his fucking air pods. And a half later, and then I guess he'd put, he'd put them in the in the cup holder, or whatever, and forgot.

Jacob  41:53  

He was so calm, so generous, for that entire hour. He was like, Are you sure you don't want to go through garbage cans. You know, I'll go back a second time if you want to go through the garbage and I really, I just, what I took from that was just the immense amount of generosity that Rob gave me in that moment of, like, quite a bit of shame, and I think, like, really feeling like I'd done something stupid, and I've, like, lost this expensive thing, but,

Robert  42:19  

but I think it's the situation where, like, turning back to the poly stuff, like, again, I kind of knew all this stuff, because T had kind of told me, so I knew that this was a thing. He didn't, you know, it was, like, kind of a sensitive spot. And, yeah, I think it speaks to how, like, you get this useful insight from someone who's known them for eight years. I think that that has been a recurring aspect of of how our friendship and our love for one another has kind of developed, that we can kind of because of, both because of and in spite of our different personalities have had this other lens through which to view one another, and that just happens to be through somebody who we each happen to love. It really,

Speaker 1  43:03  

it sounds like it mirrors a lot of you know what you were talking about earlier, with that, like coming with grace and coming with open hearted good faith approach, right? Instead of being like you did this to me or, or you did this to me, right, like each of you potentially pointing fingers at the other one, you know, how could you lose your Airpods or, like, whatever the conflict could be, right? It's like there's this desire to be supportive of each other, right? And, and, yeah, have that grace. And I don't know it's, it's a, really, it's a touching relationship, to hear that amount of of love, love, love, let's call what it is, right, like that amount of love and support. Yeah? I mean, I think I was invited if there's any final thoughts, anything like else that you want to like, leave as like a parting thought to to the listeners, Jacob, we can start with

Jacob  44:01  

you, yeah, Rob, at the beginning of this, mentioned that our first meeting was at a Passover Seder, a rad Passover Seder, and that's, you know, he was at it because I'm Jewish. My family is Jewish, and I think in this particular moment, and Rob experienced this at our Seder this year. We had a pretty different focus. We really like there my cousin I, who organized this. My cousin's a big activist in Montreal, and it was so important to speak about Palestinian Liberation, and I think about the moment that we're in right now where there's an active genocide happening in Palestine. We've talked so much about, you know, how we show up for each other with care and community. And I think you know, it's important. And I just want to say, as a Jewish person, that this genocide is real, and we have so much work to do to unpack. Back these systems of oppression that are still, you know, leading to grotesque violence around the world, and we keep us safe, like the way that we show up in relationship to each other, like that's where real character comes in. I argue back at anyone who tries to tell me that systems of power would actually, would actually protect us in society. For me, and I see it every day, particularly being a part of queer community, it's up to us and queer as in free Palestine, and I'll leave it at that, 100%

Genevieve  45:38  

thank you for that, Robert.

Robert  45:44  

I say we leave it at that. I love that. Okay, fair

Ishik  45:46  

enough. I was gonna be like, that's that's definitely a moment. So listen, thank you both so much for being here, for for talking with us. We really appreciate it.

Genevieve  45:59  

Yeah, thank you so much for everything you shared today, everything that you gave. And if there's nothing else that either of you would like to promote or, you know, tell the listeners about, then I guess I can add here that if anyone listening wants to support families in Gaza, Google operation Olive Branch, they are working with families on the ground to support them directly. So Operation Olive Branch is what I would suggest, yeah.

Ishik  46:26  

And if you are looking for more non monogamy content, you can find Genevieve at chill polyamory on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube as well.

Genevieve  46:38  

I offer direct peer support on chillpolyamary.com and if you'd like to support the show or support the work that we're doing, patreon.com/chill

Ishik  46:47  

polyamory, this has been I could never and remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean you can't do it.