Genevieve  0:00  

Welcome to I Could Never… a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Genevieve from show polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube. I'm joined, as always, by my co host and partner, ishik. 

Ishik  0:18  

Yes, I'm here, and luckily, I can breathe again. I have cleared my airways and I'm feeling good Well, I'm glad you can breathe. Thank you very much. I'm glad I can too. Today we also have Dr Han Ren joining us. They are a licensed clinical psychologist, consultant, speaker and educator on the topic of decolonizing mental health and anti oppressive clinical care. Dr Han, welcome.

Dr. Han Ren  0:40  

Hi! Thank you so much for having me.

Ishik  0:43  

Yeah, but as always, before we can get to know you more and hear more about your perspective on monogamy, there is something else, another presence that's been here all along, haunting the halls of this hallowed space in which we reside.

Genevieve  1:00  

Tell us about it, baby. It's Vibe or Vent, Vibe or Vent time. It is for anyone listening for the first time, we always like to start off the show with a little icebreaker called vibe or vent, where we'll each take a beat to share a bit about something that's either really making us happy recently or something that sucks, that we need to get off our chest. So if y'all don't mind, I can get started, please. I'm vibing today. It's actually silly, but not silly. I was out drinking with a friend, and there were these other people there that were really cute, and we were all chatting. Long story short, I accidentally joined a witch coven. Basically, it was like a very it was five of us, and we were really getting along. Well, the bartender was into it, and she was the one closing out the bar. So it was the last five of us there for closing time. And a few of the people were rather witchy, and they did a little impromptu ceremony and said, Let's all be in this COVID, and I'm along for the ride because I'm having a good time. And so on the upcoming full moon, we're all gonna meet again, and I'm gonna do another little ceremony with them. And it's not really my thing, even though I have witchy friends and people who are into, you know, some woo stuff, it's never really been something that I've necessarily pursued, but I'm also not against it either, and it was a really nice, yeah, a nice moment of connecting with new people. So yeah, that was I'm having fun with that and creative ways of making new friends. So that's what's on my mind today.

Ishik  2:38  

I mean, community comes in many forms, comes in many shapes and forms. 

Genevieve  2:41  

Anyway, I'll pass it off to you. Han, are you vibing, or are you venting today? 

Dr. Han Ren  2:49  

I am vibing on your story. That sounds so lovely. I want to join a coven. If there's any covens out there that would like a new member. Hit me up. I want to join. That's so fun. I love that you're meeting people out in the wild. It's so hard to do that as adults. Yeah, so I am venting today because it is just kind of that crunch season, end of the year. We just had elections, and there's a lot of big feelings and a lot of conflicts that I'm holding as a role I role as a therapist. It just feels like people are not at their best, and that's really that's been really hard to manage, personally and professionally. On the personal front. I've had, like, multiple breakups in the past two months, and that's been just, you know, stressful and hard and full of grief, but also full of opportunity and joy to make space for new and different things.

Genevieve  3:53  

Yeah, that is very true. Well, how about you, baby?

Ishik  3:58  

I am kind of coming on the tail end of venting about and it's becoming a vibe for me, because I was, like, kind of sick. I just got like, a couple of bad colds and and Genevieve was sick as well, and then I got some of the worst food poisoning I've had in like, 10 years, and the house was in a bit, in a bit of disarray, right? We are roommates. We cohabitate, and I tend to do a lot more of the like housekeeping stuff. And between both of us being sick and me being super out of commission, little bits of the corners of the house, right? Like the places that that you don't have to pay as much attention to, started to, like, fall into minor disarray. And so after several weeks of that, it was feeling really like cluttered and not feeling great, right? And so finally, coming out of that, starting to feel better, and getting to clean out the space has felt really good and kind of cathartic in in a similar vein, or like, kind of following off of what you were talking about. Han, where, like, there's been a lot of turmoil generally, and like, even though we aren't stateside anymore, like, we still experience it. And see, you know, and have close people and friends and stuff. And so it's been feeling sort of like getting to clean some of that out physically, you know, doing the physical action to clean out spaces, yeah, mirror the the psychological process of that as well, of like doing some work. So, yeah, that maintenance, that cleaning up, finally, bit by bit, has felt really nice. Uh, but let's get to the matter at hand on obviously, we're here to talk about non monogamy, and we often like to start by just getting a sense of what the shape and kind of nature of our guests non monogamy is. So can you tell us a bit about what that's looked like for you?

Dr. Han Ren  5:36  

Yeah. So currently I am on year three of polyamory. I have a legal spouse, husband, who I have been with for 18 years, and we are pretty mono presenting in our day to day life, in our, you know, professional lives. We have two children, but we opened up our marriage fully in 2022 beginning of 2022 and we spent maybe 10 years getting ourselves ready for that process with a lot of relationship therapy. And now I feel like we have hit our strides a little bit. We have figured out what we're looking for what we want from each other, as well as from our other connections.

Genevieve  6:25  

So you mentioned that getting ready involved like, you know, working through some conflicts and some stuff in therapy. But were there other things that you felt like you and your husband, your husband, your spouse, worked on? Were there other things that it felt like the two of you worked on that also made you feel confident about moving forward with non monogamy.

Dr. Han Ren  6:46  

For a longest time, it was, this is just something that I wanted, and I felt like there was something that was wrong with me. There was a lot of shame attached to it. There was a lot of you know, if you fix these other things in your life, maybe this part will go away. And we spend a lot of, I spend a lot of individual therapy time with, you know, therapists who are more traditional, who are like, Oh, yeah. Like, this is a trauma response, a developmental stage that you're stuck in, you know, like, really trying to, like, cure or fix this broken, quote, unquote, part of me. And, you know, nothing really helped, because it's not something that's broken from there was like, what is keeping us from actually delving into and dismantling the ideas we have around what relationships should look like, what are the fears that we can maybe address proactively and ongoingly if they should come up? So that became a lot of excavation of older relationship wounds, some attachment stuff, and a lot of individual therapy for both of us, but also couples counseling for the two of us. And we did that for, I would say, probably like two to three years before we opened up fully. We had maybe two years before opened up fully, starting in 2019 that was kind of like a poly light, you know, where there was a lot of boundaries, and it was mostly just me exploring, while he did not want to explore at that time. So it was definitely a baby step process. But it turned out that all the big fears and hindrances were more kind of manufactured or societal ideas of how relationships should look, and once we actually confronted and reassured some of those fears, it turns out like they were not even a thing. 

Ishik  8:35  

So it sounds like at first that the the driving force had been that you were really feeling pulled towards it. Is it primarily that you are seeking alternate like other relationships, and he is not really interested in pursuing all the relationships? Or are you both?

Dr. Han Ren  8:50  

Oh no, we're both doing it, yeah, yeah. He's, he's, you know, has more going on than me, so currently, at this current stage, yeah. But no, we are. We are both exploring it with other people as well as you know, reinforcing our relationship in connection with each other. 

Ishik  9:08  

For each of you, to the degree that you're, you know, comfortable sharing, been exploring primarily romantic relationships or sexual relationships, or is one of you more drawn to one or the other, or anything like that? 

Dr. Han Ren  9:19  

I'm someone who very much pursues emotional connections in all of my relationships. It's kind of what I do for a living. You know, even in the therapeutic relationship, is like, deep emotional connections with people, and so realizing, like, that's really not what I prefer and how I operate. And like, same with him, even before we had opened up, he was someone who, despite really being unsure about being non monogamous, he would have these, like, deep emotional connections with, like, co workers, you know, he would have, like, the work wives. And, you know, it was that information for me. I was like, I'm sure, like, you actually are a lot more capable of doing this than you are even giving yourself credit for just knowing that a. Both of us and like how important community is, and just having a variety of people to hold life and stress and celebration with, and you know, people to call and to go do activities with, it's just part of how we build a support system and network, and that's something that's pretty unwavering for both of us. 

Genevieve  10:19  

What was that like for you? So he was not interested, and you said you were grieving, and then there's process of questioning happened. What was it like for you as he started to evolve on his position, on that that did you have a change in how you were feeling? 

Dr. Han Ren  10:36  

Oh, yeah, what a great question. You know, this was actually a big source of contention for us. You know, after we had opened up, because he had done so much of his jealousy work before we opened up, he, in his mind, imagined, like, what is it going to be like to see you with other people? And, you know, just the way that the fetishization of Asian women works in the United States. You know, he was very familiar with me getting a lot of male attention before we even opened up. And for me, because of how society construes Asian males, like the emasculation and desexualization of Asian males, I did not have opportunities. I really didn't do that work before we opened up, and so when we had the experience of somebody else, like falling in love with him and being really, really into him, I had a lot to learn, and it was a very visceral and messy and jealous process for me, and it was so, so humbling because I thought, Oh yeah, I'm gonna be fine. I'm just a compressive person, and realizing, okay, you can have both Compersion and jealousy existing at the exact same time, and the visceral experience of it is so different than just the idea or cognitive thought of jealousy.

Ishik  12:05  

For any audience members who have not heard the term conversion or compulsive experiences, it is the experience of joy at seeing a partner have a connection, sexual, romantic or otherwise with another person. 

Genevieve  12:20  

Yeah, yeah, it is wild when you feel both at the same time. Yeah, yeah.

Ishik  12:24  

Well, you know, so earlier, you mentioned that you and your husband have two kids. How have you guys navigated introducing non monogamy into your family dynamic?

Dr. Han Ren  12:35  

Yeah, I think, you know, at the beginning, we did try to do more, like kitchen table type events, you know, group dinners, game nights. And it it was fine, but what we've learned is that, you know, sometimes, especially at the beginning, the stability of polycule membership is not always going to be consistent. And so that was harder for us to have to explain, like, oh, that person who came around a lot, the kid that you like to hang out with, like they're no longer in our lives for whatever reason. So you know, because of that, we sort of be being more cautious about how and when they are exposed to our other partners. And now it's mostly like they know they exist. We do like group things together. Sometimes our kids are not expected to hang out with them. They're not expected to defer to them as her rental or caregiver roles. And for my daughter especially, we've had a lot of conversations about it, and she is now really recognizing the value of her parents having their own identities and their own lives, because she sees the ways that our lives are rich. We don't just spend all our time child rearing and going to work. We have hobbies and interests and friends, and we have identities and whole things happening that don't center around them, and there are times when they need more from us, so we will have to rearrange to be able to prioritize that. And they know that they are the priority, ultimately, for us, but they also know that we exist outside the context of being mom and dad.

Ishik  14:12  

That's actually a fascinating take that I have not heard before, and I think is super valuable this idea, because I know from personal experience, and I think many people have shared similar things about that idea of like seeing your parents as only this entity within your family unit, as sort of an extension of yourself and your lived experience, and then years later, possibly all the way into adulthood, finally seeing them and experiencing them as a whole adult. And I think that that is very valuable for actually teaching children about, like, taking, kind of ownership of your own life too, right? Like, exactly the journey that you're going on right now, with regards to designing your life like she's getting to see that firsthand way before probably any of. US got to see that. So that's really awesome.

Genevieve  15:02  

Yeah, no, have you and your husband also had conversations about, like, parenting long term, as your kids get older, what polyamory would look like?

Dr. Han Ren  15:12  

You know, we haven't talked about that quite yet, but it's interesting, because we've been watching some of these dating shows of older people, like the reality shows like golden bachelor, the later daters, and really seen how people in their 50s, 60s and 70s date. It's been really fascinating to see what people come in with when they've been out of the dating world, and for us to be like, Wow, we've kept these skills strong. And, you know, should we find ourselves in this position in our golden years? Like, yeah, I think we're gonna be some hot shit. 

Ishik  15:53

You know, it’s like, we've been dating. We know how to do this. 

Genevieve  15:58

Our skills are sharp.

Ishik  16:05

I saw one of your posts you described the concept of this part of you that you dubbed Hot Han. Hot Han, yes. Can you tell the listeners a little bit about Hot Han. Who is Hot Han?

Dr. Han Ren  16:23  

Hot Han is the version of me that she's someone who wanted attention, she wanted to be loved. She felt undeserving and hungry. And so it was this part of me that would seek attention, seek sexual, romantic connections as a way to bolster, reinforce my sense of desirability, my sense of worth, and it was really a overcompensation for feeling like really ugly duckling for most of my life, up until college, I was not desirable by anybody, like No one asked me the homecoming like it was, you know, I had no relationships in high school because everyone's just and I was, like, nerdy, you know, it's like, hadn't quite blossomed yet. And then when I got to college, I realized, Oh, I'm hot. But like, hot in the in the most, like, fetishized kind of way right. Like, sure it was. It was because I was a young Asian woman who, like, was like, okay, I can show some skin, I can dress whatever, and I can adopt this persona that would make me desirable to the male gaze, and that became a shield that I held as a defense against from, like, actually letting people getting to know who I was, or, like, feeling comfortable and confident in all the other things that I know myself to be besides my desirability. And then, you know, after I met my husband and we, like, started a life together, I really shoved that part down, because I was like, Okay, well, I'm gonna be respected by my, you know, academic career, I'm going to be a mom, like, and all of these ideas of, you know, the binary of, like, if you're going to be respected professionally, then you can't be hot. So that was what that was like, the the seesaw I was navigating for a really long time, especially as we were, like, in the process of opening up, like, how to pop out, and like, wanna be recognized and appreciated and feel desired, and it was really hard to make space for both, like professional and maternal and respected, liked, admired Han as well as like, erotic, sexual and I feel like a lot of this opening up process was the integration of these parts of myself, so I didn't have to banish whole parts of my identity in order to be respected.

Ishik  18:55  

It's so funny too, because it's, it's basically taking one of the, like, most cliched answers that people talk about when it comes to dating is this idea of being yourself, but that is fucking hard, right? That's really hard to do, but if I'm being honest, it is still ultimately the best advice. Because, I mean, it's one thing if you're just trying to meet somebody and have a one night stand or whatever, but if you're really trying to, like, bring new, loving or just respectful or caring relationships into your life. Do you really want to try to get to know somebody, or have somebody get to know just a part of you or just like affects me of you? Or do you want them to get to know the real you, which includes being a mom and hot and intellectual and, you know, likes watching dating shows or whatever, right? Like, it's all of the things, yeah.

Dr. Han Ren  19:44  

Also, like different people will bring out different parts of us too, right? Like, what I realized is there are certain people I'm gravitating towards that are, like my father, who is very accomplished. Like, go get. Type, a personality, but also, like, more dominant, less emotionally attuned. And there's something that's very dazzling and sparkling about that. But then I also have, like, the archetype that's like, more like my stepfather, who's very gentle and considerate, but then sometimes can be a bit of a pushover, so really discovering, like my dynamic and the way that I shift in relationship to these two types of archetypes, I become very different in these relationships, and almost to a point where I can get whiplash of like, wow. I'm surprised that I would even say or do this thing, because that's not how I typically am in these other relationships, so that's been a really interesting dynamic to explore, and then also exploring queer relationships. That's not something that I had much experience with before I met my husband, and so now that's a whole new world that's open to me, that I get to explore queer dating, and that's whole new set of skills.

Genevieve  21:02  

Yeah, it can be wild to be, you know, very Yeah, feel very grown up and then be very new in queer dating. I tell people sometimes I'm like, okay, so I feel fully in my late 30s, everywhere except sometimes on a date with a cute woman, and then I'm 13.

Dr. Han Ren  21:22  

Exactly. Yeah, great way to put it that like baby queer feeling like, what am I doing? 

Ishik  21:28  

Yeah, you know, coming into non monogamy later in life. As a person with a lot of mental health expertise, a clinical psychologist and educator on on a lot of kind of emotional topics and psychological topics, was there sort of a clash between the level of knowledge that you had with the maybe experience of being really new and trying to find your footing in this new arena?

Dr. Han Ren  21:54  

Oh, absolutely, I was embarrassed. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like I thought I wouldn't experience this because I had the knowledge and because we had prepared for so long. Like, sometimes people ask me, like, Okay, I think we need to, like, keep preparing or keep researching. And I'm like, You know what, at a certain point, you just need to do it. Because it doesn't matter how much you prep, you still gonna feel the, you know, obstacles and speed bumps as you actually practice and experience it. So don't spend too long prepping. There's only so much you can, you know, do beforehand. And that was my first mistake in thinking like, because we had done so much relationship therapy work, so much excavation, like, we laid the groundwork, like, so solidly. Like, more so than most people that I talked with that I could somehow bypass these emotions, or they wouldn't hit as hard. But really, there's nothing that can bypass the visceral experience of these challenging emotions. 

Genevieve  22:54  

Yeah, yeah. We can't get better at it until we get started.

Dr. Han Ren  23:00  

Yeah, and you can prepare for all the things that are going to come up. There's they're all hypothetical. You there's no way to actually know what issues you may run into until you're actually in it. 

Ishik  23:09  

Yeah, at the end of the day, you're right. You won't know until you really do it. And I've definitely had that experience when talking to people who are newer or questioning or interested, where they're like, I mean, but like, Well, how do I know if it's going to be something I feel and I'm like, there's no real way to know, like, you kind of have to find out. Yeah, I do think that a lot of people try to do things right, quote, unquote, as much as they can when they start exploring non monogamy, and they're really trying to preempt a lot of those issues and some of the feelings that might come up. And I have yet to meet a single person who hasn't, you know, made some mistakes, mostly because we just don't have a ton of examples of kind of functional non monogamy that are presented to us as we are growing and learning about relating and love and stuff like that. So, you know, throwing to you were there any of these kinds of, yeah, like, you know, quote, mistakes or mishaps that you felt happened for you in the beginning?

Dr. Han Ren  24:05  

Yeah, I think both of us really had to unlearn a lot of people pleasing. There's so much that is normalized in monogamy, where it can be a degree of CO dependent and that's encouraged and celebrated, like, oh, you can count on your person to always be there for you and to carry your emotions when you need them to. And that's not to say that that doesn't still exist, but you also need to really learn to take responsibility for your own emotions. You may feel something really deeply and want to blame it on somebody else because they triggered it, but ultimately, you're still responsible for your own feelings. And you know, when your partner wants you to do something, it's easy when it's one partner and just okay, I'm gonna go along and do that thing and get really used to people pleasing. But when multiple partners want you to do things that are not aligned with each other, you better know what you want so you can advocate for that. So. So there was a lot of work for both of us when it came to healthy differentiation and attachment to self and really being sturdier in our own relationships with ourselves.

Ishik  25:13  

Obviously, we've heard a fair amount about your relationship with your husband, you have kids, and that's kind of a unit there. And you have described there being a few breakups recently, and I am very sorry to hear that. I hope that things are going okay, but to the degree that you're comfortable doing. So can you tell us a bit more about any other dynamics that you have going on? What those look like?

Dr. Han Ren  25:33  

Yeah. So I did have a two year long polyamorous relationship with someone who which was very, very loving, very supportive. It was such a rich, nourishing experience in my life. Was the first real polyamorous relationship that I had, and I think it just ran its course. We wanted different things ultimately, and we are in the process of trying to become friends, because I think we are actually really well suited to be great friends, but it just takes some time and some space to be able to de escalate and reimagine that. And that was, I guess, like my my other, my only other, like real attachment oriented relationship that I had long term. And so, you know, I don't feel like I'm in any place to be in New, attachment, oriented relationships. So I have, you know, some little flings here and there, but.

Ishik  26:32  

You're having hot sex. That's great. You can say it. You can say this is, this is a, what did they call it? 

Genevieve  26:40  

It's a safe space?

Ishik  26:43  

No, no, no. And I don't know, um, no, the podcast, you have to mark it as, like, explicit or something. Oh, yeah, you could say hot sex on this podcast. 

Dr. Han Ren  26:54  

I mean, I could always be having more hot sex.

Genevieve  26:57  

Can't we all, yeah. I mean, that is something that can be so wild, though about about this, I don't know life that we're living is just going through a breakup, having a husband. You know, your husband has partners like so, so it sounds like this. You mentioned that this was the first non mono, like, first polyamorous relationship you've had longer term so has it been surprising to you this experience of still being deeply in love with your husband and also experiencing a breakup at the same time? 

Dr. Han Ren  27:30  

Yeah, it's there's some dissonance there, but also it's ultimately comforting, right? Like I can be held by my husband, I can be, you know, distracted by my flings and people who are less long term, there's, there's other places for me to experience aliveness and comfort and care, and also this, this partner that I'm no longer with, like he was also a big part of my support system for other breakups I've had. And so it all kind of like goes full circle, and I think, like, yeah, heartbreak still completely exists, and it's hard and it sucks, but it's not like, oh my gosh, my life is falling apart. You know, I remember the breakups I've had, like before in my early 20s, like the world was crumbling. How do I live without this person? I can't get out of bed, I can't function. And, you know, with the commitments I have to kids and family life and everything else, it's like, okay, you're forced to function. You're forced to move forward. And so there's something that's really nice about that structure. And then it's also this reminder of like, oh, and I'm still, like, so deeply loved. And there was a part of me it's like, let me get on some dating apps. Like, I want to get some attention and some validation. And then it's like, no, no, that's not what I actually want or need right now, I that's not that would not be good for me. But there's this, like, seeking of filling that space, right? Like, okay, I want someone to text in the same way. And so where can I find that? And I have been trying to lean, you know, more on, like my friendship circles, just like community in general. So I don't like isolated with one person, but I also think the community response is different, because when you break up with your model partner and was like, Oh my God, you know there's like, this big like, let me bring you soup, and then you break up with your polyamorous partner. They're like, Okay, well, you suck at your husband, so, like, whatever. And it's like, actually, really hurts. It's a really big deal. This person was in my life for a long time, so dismissed. And so there's not, yeah, there's not the same reverence, or, like, you know, dominant culture doesn't recognize it in the same way,

Ishik  29:39  

I think, yeah, kind of in the same vein of this idea of we're designing our lives for ourselves, right? You carve out a space in your life for relationship, even if you have another relationship, that doesn't mean that there isn't this large gap of your life that is now excised as you end that relationship, and it's suddenly this like gaping wound. Of wait, but I did this with them, and I did that with them, and I like this dynamic that we had, and I don't have anyone to do those things with anymore, and yet, for some reason, it's like, yeah, but you still have this other shit. It's like, Yeah, but fuck you.

Genevieve  30:16  

I need monogamous friends, yeah, or non monogamous friends. That's why we need non monogamous friends, because, like, yeah, it's gonna be even well intentioned monogamous people will struggle to understand, get it.

Dr. Han Ren  30:28  

I will say, though, there is more normalization for the possibility of de escalate, de escalation, instead of just see a never in non monogamy. And I really appreciate that in that you know, both me and this person were holding that in mind as a possibility of what we can build towards in the future. It's such a taboo to stay in touch with your ex if you're monogamous, it's like, oh, what's the intention of that? Why would you do such a thing? But obviously that it takes time to process and to move towards that de escalation, I think people think that they can just jump into it right away, and that can be messy. So I'm trying to be really thoughtful about it, but I'm also more hopeful for that as a possibility, as compared to my mono breakups, where it was not something that was even in the realm of possibility. 

Genevieve  31:29  

You, so you talk a lot about hitting cultural barriers to engaging with therapy when you work with clients from the AAPI community, the Asian, American, Pacific Islander community. Do you feel like those barriers also exist with exploring things like polyamory? 

Dr. Han Ren  31:43  

Yeah, I think there's so much cultural stigma. The collectivist cultural norm is you get shamed. If you are outside of that box, you get ostracized. There's a lot of fear of rejection and abandonment, I mean, to the point where I don't hide things from my parents, but I don't tell them about things either. So, you know, they may discover I mean, they will discover things because I'm writing a book. But you know, these are not things that I spoon feed them, and I don't think they would know what to do with any of this. It's just so outside the realm of understanding. And I think for a lot of collectivist cultures, it's like, when things are that outside the norm, it's like, don't look at it. Don't think about it. Just be normal. Like, why are you so abnormal? That's that's the the shame script, right? Just get in line. Don't bring shame on the family by talking about your mental health or talking about your sex life like it's a lot of fitting into these boxes, and we need the collective. We need community in order to survive and thrive, and so we don't want to ruffle feathers in that way. But it's also maybe time for us to expand what the collective allows for, especially in dynamics that aren't hurting people, dynamics that are actually building more webs of care and connection.

Genevieve  33:07  

For anyone who might be like in that place of my only community would absolutely shame me or reject me. What would you say to them? Or what do you suggest to people who might feel like, well, what do I do?

Dr. Han Ren  33:19  

You can take baby steps. You don't have to make big waves. You don't have to make any grand pronouncements, but make connections. Learn more about the type of life that you're hoping to live. Reach out to people who are doing it already and find out, how did you make this work for you? What are the specific dynamics that allowed this. And what are you still struggling with? Being able to actually have relationships with people, living the life that you hope to live is such a key part of imagining that life for yourself.

Ishik  33:52  

You know, given that you have so much experience working with people to unpack some of these barriers, do you feel like you have any specific insights from that work that might be applied to in helping people who are interested in pursuing non monogamy but feel these cultural barriers to doing so.

Dr. Han Ren  34:11  

At the heart of it true, non monogamy involves agency, involves discovering what you want and moving towards it, you aren't funneled into a non monogamous life by society. So in the context of moving towards these bigger decision making points, how do you construct your day to day decision of learning to trust yourself, learning to know what it is that you want exploring pleasure, and not just sex, but like pleasure at things that make your body feel good, and ways that you want to move your body or engage your mind or engage your creative side. I think so many times people feel constricted by. Their responsibilities to societal expectations, familial roles that they struggle to even carve out the time for themselves that go beyond like, well, I spend extra time on my skincare tonight because that's my self care and like, yes, that's beautiful. But also, is there something else you want to do you want to take a pottery class? Maybe I don't know just different ways that we can imagine making choices for ourselves that light us up, make us feel alive, make us feel delighted. I think as adults, we forget to play. And for so many of us, flirting is playful. It is inherently playful. So that is one way that we get to play as adults. If you don't want to do with other people, do it with your partner. So it's it's all part of this bigger web of ways that we can attune to ourselves our needs and learn to trust ourselves in figuring out how to get those needs met and believing that we are deserving of getting those needs met. 

Genevieve  36:08  

Hmm, do you ever come across people who struggle to feel pleasure, or who will like, want that, but not have an easy time doing it?

Dr. Han Ren  36:16  

Oh, yeah, all the time, all the time, there's so much shame involved in pleasure. It's this idea of, you know, what is this for? How does this serve anyone? The only person that benefits is me, and that's selfish because I'm not helpful, or I'm not being of service to anybody else, or productivity or furthering my knowledge or career. People don't value play or experience for the sake of experience, they'll engage in pleasurable things if it's teaching them a skill, right? Like, oh, dance or running a marathon. There's an accomplishment, there's a capitalistic gain to it, a pleasure for the sake of pleasure, having a hobby that you don't sell on Etsy. That is really hard for a lot of people to allow themselves to explore.

Ishik  37:06  

You know, that reminds me of, you know, I definitely seen you've had posts about non monogamy as a form of self liberation, that self investigation, what you want, what do you want to prioritize? 

Dr. Han Ren  37:19  

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. This attachment to self concept, which is not something that I think, you know, we learn about in our monogamous relationships or even our family relationships, and I think coming from a collectivist culture and background, it's even less talked about. You know, Asian women are very much reinforced for being martyrs and for being valuable and useful to others. So our roles defines who we are, rather than any qualities about our personalities or other things that are important to us individually. And not to say that, you know, individualism is the way at all, but there's got to be some balance, right? And there's got to be this, at least a consideration of, what is my relationship with myself? What how do I feel about myself when I am not getting that external validation from other people? How do I know that I'm doing a good job in whatever realm that I'm focused on, if people aren't telling me that I'm doing a good job or needing me to show up for them in a certain way. So I think that was the big liberation part for me, because it wasn't just, you know, in the context of non monogamy, it was in the context of my collectivist culture, my roles and identities, and you know, so much of my sense of self was based on being present for other people, as a therapist, as a healer, as a mother, as an educator, I had really defined who I was by being desired and admired by what I could do for others, and so this was part of my greater process of finding myself and discovering what do I like to do? How do I want to spend my time? And am I okay and comfortable doing that when there isn't anybody else there who's doing it with me, or reinforcing that I'm, you know, on the right path?

Ishik  39:10  

Is there, like, any examples that come to mind? 

Dr. Han Ren  39:13  

Yeah, I mean, this is such a simple example, but you know, there's that first time when all of your people that you're in connection with are with other people, and you are folding laundry at home by yourself or your you know, kids are in bed like you gotta, you gotta hold down the fort. And, you know, at first, it's a very lonely experience. I was like, Wait a minute. I didn't become non monogamous to like, be alone, like, and you know, there's like, a lot of like, memes and tropes about it, like, oh, you always have somebody. But I think that bypasses this deeper spiritual work that you have to do, is that there is going to be times when everyone is with other people, and you can't count on this default, you know, partner to always be there. To entertain you, to hold your emotional dumping, whatever it is you have to be able to learn how to self regulate and entertain yourself, and learn to enjoy that time. So you know, now I really appreciate that time when I get it, and it's a time that I get to journal and listen to whatever music I want to listen to and watch trashy TV that my partner maybe doesn't want to watch, and it's a time to really relish in that connection to self. 

Genevieve  40:28  

I love that because, yeah, like being alone or with the kids folding laundry, that would be perfect martyr territory. So, but if you turn it into I'm gonna put on my show and my music and that, you know, just even those simple moments can can change your head space. I love that. 

Dr. Han Ren  40:48  

Yeah, I think it's just, it's so important to highlight. It's not the actions that change or the roles that are inherent to other people that change. It is your relationship to these roles, because you can still show up for people in the same ways, which I think I do, and I hope I do, that people would call me a good mom, a good partner, you know, whatever else in my roles, but my relationship to these roles are less exhausting, less selfless, less just this expenditure of who I am For everybody else, I still get to protect me and what I want and how I want to show up that has reserves for myself.

Ishik  41:28  

We were speaking earlier about the idea of how easy it is for a lot of us to have made a lot of mistakes at the start, because there wasn't a lot of example. There weren't a lot of examples for us, there wasn't a lot of functional non monogamy, uh, modeled for us in our in our youth, especially you are now at this point, not only you know a grown woman engaging non monogamy publicly, but very publicly. You have a large platform online. You are a mother to both like slightly older and somewhat younger children who are seeing this being portrayed in front of them, and and you are bringing a lot of personal work and professional expertise to this, and you are now a model for younger people.

Dr. Han Ren  42:15  

No pressure.

Genevieve  42:18  

Everyone is watching you. 

Ishik  42:20  

And I think that's what I'm trying to bring it to, is basically like, does it feel like a pressure, or does it feel like a privilege? Or both?

Dr. Han Ren  42:29  

Oh, it feels like such a privilege. I mean, there is some pressure, right? But I think the pressure is less about like, doing it perfectly, or, you know, there's only one way the pressure is more like, how do I do it authentically, like, I'm gonna fuck up, and how do I talk about that in a way that is honest and demonstrates growth? And you know what I have learned from these fuck ups, I don't want to portray, that there's any one way to do it, or that I've done anything perfectly. This has been so, so messy for me, and that's okay, and I want to normalize that for everybody else, you know, in terms of the the modeling, and what I want to convey to younger generations is like you can do this and be a mom and be a damn good mom. You can do this and be a therapist or a lawyer or a teacher or whatever professional role you hold does not preclude you from living your own life. You can have both exist and you can do this as a woman of color. Not all women, especially not all women of color are forced into this by the men in their lives. I definitely drove this in my relationship. I have agency. I chose this and I relish and love this because it's what I want.

Genevieve  43:56  

It was so lovely. Thank you so much for sharing everything that you did.

Dr. Han Ren  43:59  

Yeah, thank you. This has been really great. It's been fun. It's it's been so it's been so lovely to think about how to talk about some of these experiences too. You know, it's, I don't have a ton of opportunity to really dive deep into the nuance of these experiences, and I'm really appreciating this platform and space to do that. 

Ishik  44:24  

That's awesome. Well, I have no better things to say than that. I think we should do our outro.

Genevieve  44:30  

We would love to invite more people to get to know you better. So where can they find you online, and what projects can they learn more about you?

Dr. Han Ren  44:40  

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram and Tiktok as Dr Han, Ren, d r, dot, h, a n, dot, r, e n, and it's the same on tick tock without the dots. And I'm writing a book that will be out in June of 2026 called the hyphenated life about communing the. Between and liminal spaces of intersectional marginalized identities when we're feeling like we're too much for one space, but not enough for another, how do we reconcile that and become our authentic, most liberated selves? I love that.

Ishik  45:13  

That's awesome, especially given that so much of this has been about kind of finding your agency. Really, I feel like maybe there's a valuable resource available

Genevieve  45:22  

To our listeners in the form, yeah, everybody, stay tuned.

Ishik  45:25  

And if you're looking for more polyamory content, Genevieve, as always, is on Tiktok and Instagram at chill polyamory. She's also on YouTube at chill polyamory, where she discusses non monogamy in film and TV.

Genevieve  45:39  

You can support those projects and this podcast directly on Patreon, where you'll also get early access to videos, private stories, live Q and A's and an option for one on one peer support. So that's patreon.com/chillpolyamory. 

Ishik  45:52  

And as always, this has been I could never and for anyone listening, remember that just because you've never done something before doesn't mean that you can't do it.

Genevieve  46:01  

Bye!