Genevieve 00:01

Hi, I'm Genevieve King. I make short and long form videos about polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube, @chillpolyamory. I'm non monogamous for 12 years, offering polyamorous peer support for the last six and this podcast is something that I've been cooking up with my long term partner, Ishik.

Ishik 00:18

Oh, my God, that's me. I'm Ishik. But yeah, I mean, we've talked so many times about how poorly non monogamy is represented in media, and we figured, why don't we start telling some stories about how non monogamy can really look. So we set out to create this anthology series interviewing non monogamous people from all over the world, telling some of their stories. So welcome to episode one of I could never.

Genevieve 00:43

And just a quick note that I actually changed my name halfway through the season, so the first few episodes you'll hear me referred to as Morgan, just to avoid any confusion. We hope you enjoy. 

Welcome to I could never, a podcast about non monogamy and the many ways it can look. I'm Morgan from chill polyamory on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube. I'm joined by my co host and partner, ishik.

Ishik 01:11

Yes, I'm ishik and I am here, but much more importantly, Cera Gibson is also here. Cera, welcome,

Cera 01:19
hi. Thank you for having me you guys!

Genevieve 01:20
For anyone who doesn't know Cera, she's a polyamorous voice actor, musician and audio erotica storyteller, is that how you introduce yourself?

Cera 01:29
Yes, that's pretty much exactly the spiel.

Ishik 01:33

Well, I'm glad that we have nailed that spiel, but before we get into any other spiele that is German for games, but any other spiels, we have the world's best icebreaker. It is called Vibe or Vent, and we are going to be doing it now. We are each gonna go around and say something that we vibe about, either something feeling good, or something that we need to vent about, something that's frustrating us, bothering us. Morgan, why don't you go ahead and start us off and show us how it's done.

Genevieve 02:05

Sure. I'm vibing today. I'm very excited about one of my friendships. The further we move from each other in the world, the closer we seem to be getting emotionally, which is actually really unexpected, but I'm excited about it. And she's visiting Germany, and so I'm seeing her next week. So even though we've been friends, close friends for like, six years, and we only talk once a month, she's one of my closest friends. And so it's really interesting how like the frequency and even the distance has not gotten in the way. And yeah, so I'm really excited about that. I'm pleasantly surprised. Yeah,

Ishik 02:39
I'd love to hear Cera. Cera, are you vibing or venting today?

Cera 02:43

I'm vibing today. I got to have pretty much the whole month off from working, which is wonderful. So I've been doing just about nothing. Went to Ireland recently for about a week, and so I've just been riding that high, one of the most beautiful, clean, incredible places I've ever been to. Honestly, I did have to get used to the food. My palate is significantly more spicy than Ireland's palette. And one of my Irish friends, I was talking to him, and he was like, we consider plain potato spicy. And I'm like, okay, that's I definitely got that vibe.

Genevieve 03:19
yeah, we had that issue moving to Germany too, where they would say something’s spicy, but that meant they added paprika. That's all.

Cera 03:27
There's a spice present,

Genevieve 03:30
non salt and pepper. Spice existing, it’s spicy.

Cera 03:37
And a lot of Italian restaurants. No, I actually went with one of my friends that might also become a partner. We can talk about that. It was our first trip together. It was very nice.

Genevieve 03:49

That's great. Well, I'm

Ishik 03:50

I’m excited to learn more about that, but before we can continue on this positive train of vibes, I'm gonna bring down the mood. Bring it down. Bring it right down, because I'm going to need to vent today. So I was just having a conversation with someone about two people that are very close to me, and I'm just feeling really, really sad about those relationships, because in the shortest possible terms, I have been watching them sort of succumb to money sickness. They have just started earning more and more and more money, and that becoming more and more a focus of their drive. And like, Listen, you need money. It's, I'm not saying like, it's bad to make money in general, but like this is like an overabundance amount of wealth. Not like, Oh, they got nice little payday. It's like, it's like, you know, nonsense, kind of money. So the way that it has taken over their lives and their priorities, and the way that they relate to people close to them has really gone down the drain. Yeah, they're just. Like, really isolating themselves a lot, pushing away people. The person I was speaking with was describing as like this, this distance that's between them, and the sense of superiority towards people that have been in their lives for a really long time.

Genevieve 05:12
That’s a very real thing, really hard. You know? 

Ishik 05:14 

Yeah, it's just sad.

Genevieve 05:15

I think isolation can be a really common response to a lot of wealth. Yeah, well, that's okay. Relationships fluctuate, and so that sounds like the theme of our Vibe or vent, as we've got some growth and we've got some receding Yeah,

Ishik 05:30
well, I'm glad that at least my my recession is counterbalanced by two very pleasant areas of growth. So thank you guys for lifting it up.

Genevieve 05:42

Well, I do want to jump in and learn a little bit more about you, Cera, we're so excited to have you here. with this project being centered on non monogamy. I do want to start with that. Can you tell us about your non monogamy, what it looks like, especially how you got to where you are right now,

Cera 06:00

absolutely so non monogamy when I was growing up was always presented within a Mormon lens of polygamy. The man has multiple wives. The wives do not have multiple husbands, as fun as that would be. And so growing up non monogamy to me sounded like a terrible thing. But around the time that I was 18 19 one of my friends actually started dating a couple, and it was very much like a throuple situation, but it wasn't closed. She was able to freely date whoever she wanted to, and that was a really healthy, expanding experience for her. So through watching that, it just first, like ticked on in my brain. I'm like, wait a minute, that seems really wonderful, because I'd found that through my dating experience as a teenager, I would be dating someone, I would love them, but then I would also find that I was very pulled in connections with others. And because I was monogamous, I never explored those connections. but I always felt drawn in that way, and I experienced a lot of shame around it, because I felt like, why would I be drawn to these other people? If I'm in love with somebody else, does that mean I'm a bad person? Does it mean I don't really love them? So I ended up getting into a really long term relationship when I was about 20 years old. It was monogamous, and near the end of it, he actually pitched the idea of being non monogamous, opening up the relationship because we were not having the amount of sex that he wanted. It's a tale as old as time. You can find that story 100 times on the polyamory subreddit, and so I agreed to opening it up because I wanted a little bit more experience with women. And I was like, hey, if he's sleeping with women, I can sleep with women. But very quickly I realized, hey, I don't know how fair it is that you get to sleep with whomever you're attracted to, but I'm bisexual, and I can't sleep with whomever I'm attracted to. And so he was upset. He's like, I knew this was gonna happen, and he shuts it down, and we close off the relationship. But that area of my brain had already been ignited. And so by the time we broke up, I realized that I did not want to be monogamous any longer, and I really wanted to experience non monogamy. So I met my partner, Vadim, who I live with, and he had had a lot of experience with non monogamy, so when I was expressing that I really wanted to explore that, he's like, Hey, actually, me and my ex girlfriend had dated a couple together before. They had done a lot of things that were akin to swinging, and so when he and I started dating, we pretty much started swinging. More or less. That gives a very specific image in people's minds. It's not quite what most people would imagine, but more or less. And from there, we went from like swinging to exploring what a throuple might look like, to realizing that dating separately is probably more of the jive, and that's where I'm at now, is I have a nesting partner, and we both have the freedom and the autonomy to explore other connections in a way that's authentic to us, but that's, yeah, that's about what we're looking at right now.

Genevieve 09:05
That is such a that's such an arc that you've had. 

Cera 09:11 

I know it really is.

Ishik 09:12

I think the first thing that jumps out to me is that experience of trying to open up a monogamous relationship sort of like to save it almost. Yes, so I do think that it is very common, right? So for all those people on the polyamory subreddit who are talking about, that's what they're going through right now, what would be something that you wish someone had said to you sooner back then, when you were first experiencing that, that you would want to say to them now,

Cera 09:37

if you are opening up as a solution to problems in your relationship, you really probably shouldn't open up, because it will break you up. I think non monogamy, if you're not doing the work, if you're not going to couples counseling, if you're not reading, if you're not really trying to explore polyamory as polyamory and not a solution, it's just going to Speed up that timeline of ending your relationship. so you have to make sure you're solid and make sure that the reasons why you're non monogamous is not to please your partner, because that's going to end in you being even more unsatisfied in the relationship. And I think for me, it's not just because you're with someone who's heterosexual and they're only attracted to one gender, it's not even to then expect you to only interact sexually and romantically with that same gender.

Genevieve 10:32
Yeah, yeah. It sounds like you had one penis policy, formally or informally? Yeah,

Cera 10:38 

absolutely.

Ishik 10:39
Was it formal or, like, was it, like, specifically upfront? No. Men,

Cera 10:44

yeah. No Men.

Genevieve 10:45

yeah. I mean, there's a lot to get into with that. Like, well, first, in terms of, like, opening up to save a relationship, I always ask people like, would you have a kid to save a relationship? Would you, you know, make your life more complex because it's already not working. Would you add more emotions and needs to the pile? Is that what you want to be doing right? Like you're grown and you can do whatever you want. And also, this might be making it worse, like you're saying in terms of one penis policy, like, was it a gender thing, like, you couldn't date any men, or was it like, I don't want any other dicks in the mix like that kind of thing?

Cera 11:21

It was penis, because I asked in detail, what exactly about me engaging sexually with a man is gross to you. And what he said was, I don't want my mouth where another penis has been. So it was very specifically like the penis, which is super dehumanizing to both myself and any people involved, to be like the penis having been inside of me is enough for you to not want to engage with me sexually. It's like, Sorry, bud. I've slept with people that are not you before you. So technically Your mouth has been so I think it was more like a symbolic penis within the confines of our relationship. but very specifically that, like, if it had been a trans man that did not have bottom surgery, I don't think he would have been upset about that.

Genevieve 12:13

I think, yeah, there's just inherent like, whenever there's bio essentialism like that, or body parts based rules. My next conversation is about transphobia, and also it sounds like maybe some homophobia, like he's grossed out by proximity to another dick, so therefore you don't have your freedom.

Cera 12:31
Well, exactly, just any sort of association with another penis in recent history was too much for him.

Ishik 12:37

He's missing out.

Cera 12:40 

I know

Ishik 12:43

I wanted to ask about you. Said you had a friend who had been dating a couple they were in sort of a loose throuple or but, um, you, you said that that sort of opened this idea, and that it really informed what you might want in non monogamy. Do you feel like looking back now? Do you feel like you would still look back and be, like, impressed by how they operated, how they practiced?

Cera 13:08

That is such a good question, and that's something I've reflected on. And no, actually, I think on the surface, there were a lot of things that looked incredibly healthy, like they didn't have jealousy in terms of what was happening in front of their face, and they were really open with each other, having really close, like friendships of different genders, and not limiting that, and not limiting them to just being platonic. However, when it came to the two of them engaging with someone else sexually or romantically, like taking it a step further, they had to be present, and in some ways, kind of like sign off on the person. And so me, being as young as I was, and coming from a very monogamous Christian lens, I felt like, oh my god, this is so progressive. And like, they can watch each other make out with someone, and they're happy about it, or even aroused by it, that's incredible. But now looking back, no, there was still some level of restriction, and if one of them wasn't getting along or meshing with the person that they were dating, they would end that relationship entirely. And I know that for my friend, something similar to that ended up happening, which was very hurtful for her. And they're all still friends, which is great, and I don't think they're like bad people or anything, but they definitely have that veto policy, the couple's privilege is like, turned up to a max, but at the time it looked pretty cool.

Genevieve 14:30C

I mean, so we all have things in our own early non monogamy that were like, Ooh, I wish I could take that back, or I would have done that differently. Is there anything that comes to mind for you in that similar reflection that you wish you had done differently.

Cera 14:47

Yes, there was one time my partner made a safe sex decision really early on in our like separate, parallel polyamory journey. What it was is that. I had had like it was a rule, more or less, where it was like, if you decide not to use a condom with someone like that has to be a conversation you have with me and they like, need to be tested XYZ, blah, blah, blah. So what ended up happening is he got into a situation with someone where they had been tested and they were on birth control, and they both decided that it was like, safe for them to not use a condom. My reaction to that, because it had never happened before, and I had such this feeling of safety, of like, okay, we have these boundaries. Like, these are the things that are happening and still kind of in a place of, like, not fully understanding the fact that boundaries are for you and they're not for another person. And so if someone does something where you're uncomfortable, then you adjust your behavior or you talk about it. I wasn't in that space, and so when I found out, I lost it. I was so upset, and then I'm thinking, I'm like, Well, did you talk about the birth control and the type of birth control? And, like, what is her stance on, like, abortion and like, this whole thing. And when I came down from that, I realized that I wasn't necessarily upset with the agreement being broken. I was upset with the loss of control and feeling like decisions were being made that didn't involve me because they didn't, and that was really hard for me to come to terms with, but I realized I'm like, it's not gonna always be reasonable for me to be part of this conversation. Like I need to be in a place where, if I feel uncomfortable, I can express that without being like, this has to go through me. So that was, like, the first big one that really shook me, and I was like, Oh, I have some ego stuff I need to work on.

Genevieve 16:44

Yeah, I think you mentioned earlier this discovery of Oh, boundaries are things that I do and I participate in. And so, yeah, I've had a similar experience before, like you're describing, where it's like, oh, this is actually not my sex or my relationship. So if I'm uncomfortable, maybe I add barriers. I change the kind of sex I want to have with our shared partner, like, yeah, just kind of recognizing it's not enforceable to control. You know, it's kind of an illusion of control. Yeah,

Ishik 17:13

I did want to ask about that. Or kind of speak to that element of control. I think we talk about that, the idea of control in those situations is about feeling safe. Do you feel like that was the case for you? 

Cera 17:26

Yeah, it was providing a sense of security. And I think if my partner had been like, No, you're being crazy. Like, this isn't that big of a deal, that probably would have been a deal breaker at that point, because that would have told me clearly, oh, I'm not safe and I'm not respected in this point, because that would have told me clearly, oh, I'm not safe and I'm not respected in this connection, but that is not at all remotely what happened. It was like, Oh my gosh, you're so right. I didn't think about this. How can we go about, like, remedying this and avoiding it in the future? And then we got to have a healthy conversation once I'd calmed down. But I did realize, yes, it was coming from a place of fear and, yes, control, but also a desire for security to feel like, okay, this relationship fits in this box, and it's locked down, and so I can feel comfortable with it.

Genevieve 18:09

In terms of, like, noticing that. I think a lot of people do notice that, and then they also struggle to not do it. It's like, this is, this is my only idea of how I can be safe. So this is what must happen. So, yeah, I'm curious of how you sort of were able to soften or if you were redefining what security meant, maybe building trust with your partner.

Cera 18:30

Yes, for me, redefining the security, what it means to me now is knowing we can discuss anything without it becoming make or break in the relationship, knowing that if someone does make a mistake, it can be a conversation. So instead of these are the rules, our relationship is only safe if it's in these rules. For me, it's now I need to be able to talk to you. I need to be able to express my feelings and be heard, and that's what makes me feel safe and secure.

Ishik 19:01

Do you? Do you have any specific like techniques that you've developed for yourself or in your relationships that you find to be like, you know, quote, unquote, like best practices about how to navigate these conversations, like how to facilitate them and make them like go smoothly, you know?

Cera 19:21

I think taking space if you need to. I think having a really intense emotional response is perfectly reasonable, but you're not going to have the most constructive conversation within that mental space. And so for me, I will take some space and I will journal and really make sure that I know how I'm feeling, because sometimes someone else's behavior or situation that happens triggers something that's actually pretty unrelated to the situation, but it's speaking to a similar feeling. And so I want to understand where did this come from? Is it this situation? Is it something else that's being triggered? How do I want to approach this? And so once. I get that organized in my own mind, and I've calmed down a little bit, I feel like then I'm equipped to approach this conversation. And a lot of people feel like, you need to find the right time for this conversation. I don't know if there's ever a right time for hard conversations. Maybe if someone just got back from work and they're absolutely exhausted, or it's the middle of the night and you just have this nagging anxiety. You're like, I need to talk right now. Those are probably not the times. But if you're just relaxing in the middle of the day over lunch, be like, Hey, I have some food for thought I would like to talk to you about, and that's normally a fine time to do that. 

Genevieve 20:35

Yeah, a lot of times people ask me, How do I know when I'm ready? Or how do I know when it's the right time? As if there could be a universally applicable right way to do things. But I usually respond with, well, it's not about really being ready. It's are you willing to be uncomfortable right now? Like, when are you willing to be uncomfortable? Be awkward. And, like you said, put some space between the reaction and the response. I think that that sounds like a great best practice that you and I practice, too.

Ishik 21:03

I mean, I was actually gonna say, like, just to bring it into a very real time example, just before we started recording, I You were stressed a little bit because we, you know, we have a bunch of things that we're working on this week, and you were writing, and there was just a lot going on today, and you were, like, very locked into doing a bunch of stuff. and your focus, my brain was interpreting it as she's not looking at me, she doesn't want to talk to me. She's upset with me for something, right? And so I, it was like, 15 minutes before we're about to jump on and I'm like, sitting here like shit, like, am I gonna come into this podcast where we need to be open and honest and, you know, present and stuff, having this fear in the back of my mind that you're upset with me, right? And I, like, in my head, I was like, this isn't the right time. Like, not now. It's gonna, like, what if it's a big, what if she is upset with you, it's a big problem. And I just had to, like, Tell that voice to shut up. Like, shut the hell up. So I just asked you, and like, trusted that if we needed to have a quick conversation, we would have a quick conversation about it and be okay. And you were like, No, I'm just, like, writing. I'm like, okay, cool, definitely, sure. And you're like, yeah. I'm like, okay, cool, yeah. So it's, it's, you know.

Genevieve 22:19

but I think that that's hard earned brevity. Yes, because we're doing this now, we're in our 10th year together, and so our conflicts can be two to five minutes, you know, but that was definitely not always the case. So I think that's kind of the nice thing is that, you know, tension doesn't go away, having hard conversations doesn't go away, but you can get a lot more streamlined with it, especially as you learn yourself and your partners. 

You mentioned that you were raised Mormon. I also came from a high control group, like I call it a cult, but I find those to be in the same spectrum of experiences. So yeah, I'd be curious a little bit about your experience in the church, and at what point you decided to leave. What got you there? 

Cera 23:15

Well, I was raised in the church. Both of my parents converted my mom when she was 17. My dad a bit older, and so I was raised in an environment where that's really all that we had. We were incredibly poor. My parents' relationship was super Rocky, all of my childhood and adolescence. And so my family, my parents, clung to the church. I wasn't able to question things within the context of maybe I don't believe this, because I could just see in my mom's face the bubbling anxiety of, like, oh my god no, it's going to tear our family apart. We're not going to be able to be together for eternity, which is like the pillar of the church is building families to be together for eternity. So I didn't have the freedom as a child to be emotionally honest ever. And it was, I don't know, maybe when I was eight, I started to realize that I had, like, a sexual attraction to women. And as I got a little bit older, me and my friends would play house and we would kiss and whatever else. And then when I was 13, my bishop said that sexual immorality is to the same degree in the eyes of God as murder, and what that means is adultery, having sex outside of marriage, and homosexuality. And I remember it just hitting me so hard in my stomach of like, oh my God, you're gay and you're going to Hell, yeah. And I was so from that moment I fell into the most unreal depression for someone who was 13, like I barely remember being 13, because I was so wracked with guilt and shame over being attracted to my friends. So that was very hard for me to wrestle with and growing up like I had accepted the church, because that's all that I knew. But at this point, I was also starting to have really serious doubts, and I was getting in drag down, screaming fights with my mother over this, just destroying the household over it, because I was so upset and I was so depressed and there wasn't space for that. That's when I learned, hey, you just, if you want to have a happy, peaceful life, you're just going to have to find a way to believe this and do this. And dove into reading the Book of Mormon. I read it multiple times in the Bible, and I did this thing called the strength for the youth packet, which is just like pretty much indoctrination made fun, gamified. You get patches and like awards for completing certain Mormon related things, and do these different practices to be a chaste woman and learn how to cook, to be a wife, and yada yada.

Ishik 25:50
So this is just like shame Girl Scouts.

Cera 25:53

Exactly! So I did that, and I got really, really into it. I would clock my friends for saying, Oh my God. I'm like, do not take my Lord's name in vain. And they're like, Jesus, like you used to be fun Cera. And so I did that whole thing. And then when I was 16, I met a really wonderful group of people that were not Mormon, and I became really, really good friends with them. And I remember it just clicked for me. I'm like, Oh, my God, these people are such better people than a lot of the kids that I was raised with, and they're not religious at all. And so what they're not going to get to go to the celestial kingdom. They don't get to live in eternity with Christ, even though they treat me better and they're kinder and they're more open and empathetic and understanding than anyone I went to church with. that was immediately the thing that started to really get the wheels turning for me. And then I remember a guy I was dating his mom. She was like Jack Mormon, which just means, like, they believe in the literature, but they also, like, drink and watch R rated movies, whatever. And she told me, she was like, Who's telling you that your relationship with God can't be yours. I'm like, What do you mean? And she's like, when you repent to God, you are repenting to God. When you pray to God, you are praying to God. Who is to say that anyone else should be intercepting that and telling you whether your connection with God is wrong or right? And I was like, actually, that is so true. And I found that as I explored an individual relationship with God, I lost my belief in God. That wasn't what was upsetting. I was so upset that I'd essentially been like, lied to, and it had caused so much destruction in myself for so long, and it has caused me to hate myself for so long, and so I left when I was 18. It almost ripped my family apart, but I was so sure of the fact that what I had been raised in was not true, and it was so oppressive to my spirit that I was willing to go through these horrible experiences just to get on the other side of it, no regrets whatsoever. But a lot of people call it a cult, and I'm always hesitant to call it a cult, because it's not like with Scientology, where you might have a financial barrier to leaving or something, no. but the social pressure and losing your entire community and your foundation, that's a terrifying thing to come to terms with, especially when you're that young. but ultimately, it was the best thing for my mental health ever, and I couldn't possibly regret it. It's been 10 years now, actually, almost exactly,

Genevieve 28:34

wow. Yeah. I mean, the way that dogma can unravel with just one question. You just, like, pull out that thread just a little bit, and then that's if it was actually that bulletproof. It wouldn't it would stand up to questioning. You know, that's definitely something that I experienced, too. Yeah. I mean, you grew up with a lot of purity culture. Now you're working in, like, audio erotica. Walk us through how you get there and how you're like, unlearning some of the messaging that you were told.

Cera 29:06

It started out as, like an act of rebellion. I think I became very like sexy and brash and vulgar as a way of, kind of counteracting what I was raised in. I shaved the side of my head, and I started wearing studs and chains. And like, I, you know, I've always been kind of on the alternative side, but it was definitely like all the way turned up to 11. And so it started out like that. And then what happened is, as you get older, you know, you're exploring your sexuality, and I was met with feeling weird amounts of shame. Like I'd go hook up with someone that I was having, like, a casual sexual relationship with, and it would be very enjoyable, and I had a great time, and I have a good connection with this person. And then when we were done and we were laying there and we were cuddling, I would get this crazy just like, drop lump in my stomach. and intellectually, I had no qualms with what had happened. I hadn't done anything I wasn't okay with, but my body still had this response for a very, very long time. and I finally overcame it, I think, by just giving myself the space to talk to myself about it. like I would when I would journal, I would kind of just talk to myself about the feelings that I was experiencing, and I would also express these things to my partners. I had a super hard time advocating for, like, my own sexuality and the things that I wanted in the bedroom and like, what was going to make me feel safe, what was going to bring me pleasure, and it was having the space with my sexual partners to go, Hey, I would like to try this. Or, hey, maybe don't do this. Or I'm feeling a weird emotion right now. Can we just like chill and being able to live in that space. And so it was that paired with time, because I don't think time heals all wounds, but it definitely gives you space and perspective to be able to reflect on those wounds and give them the care and the attention that they need. That really opened me up to being as comfortable with sexuality as I am, and finding a lot of healing and doing stuff like audio erotica. I do, like guided masturbation meditations, and I center those around like reclaiming your power, like having space in your body, like feeling your body, and recognizing that like your pleasure is not only your pleasure, but like your responsibility, and owning that. and that's been really healing for me, because I'm saying these things, I'm creating this audio, and it's reinforcing in me, like, yeah, like my pleasure is My own. It is my responsibility. It is mine. No one else can take that from me or alter it from me unless I let them.

Ishik 31:46

As you were saying that last thought, it actually sort of mirrored the thought that you had in that conversation with that Jack Mormon woman about how it's like a personal relationship to your to your sexuality, a personal relationship to your God. It's like, it's like, sort of had this mirror.

Cera 32:04

I mean, it's the same thing, like your sexuality, your Higher Self, God, whatever that is all you. and people want to have a say on that, to control it, because it makes them feel safer. You know, whether they're doing it because they don't feel secure in their own sexuality, or they want to exert control, to feel control in their space. They haven't owned their shit. And so whenever someone's trying to impose their viewpoints or be like, you're gross and a whore, if I can say that on here, I know, yeah, okay, cool. You're gross and a whore. 

Ishik 32:39
Couple of whores over here. Let's do this. 

Cera 32:40
Couple of whores. But I just know that they haven't owned that relationship with their sexuality, with themselves and their mind and being.

Genevieve 32:51

It’s so true. Like, the more that you can get distance from that negative self talk, that self shaming, that aligning with the messages you got when you're younger, like, the more that that feels far away, the more at least I can see, oh, you're projecting onto me right now. like you're seeing me as you are, not as I am, if that makes sense, you know. and so to not take it as personally, but that is definitely can be like a non linear path.

Cera 33:20
Yes, it's very up and down.

Ishik 33:23

So I do want to specifically with regards to kind of being raised in this environment where polygamy was, like, very normalized and very much a big part of the whole Mormon faith. I do know that these things are, like, very linked in a lot of people's minds, you know about Mormonism and polygamy. even though, technically, the official stance, as I understand it is that they disavow polygamy, and that's like an old thing that we don't do anymore. It sounds like that was not your experience as somebody actually growing up in Mormonism.

Cera 33:55

Yeah. Well, they disavowed it in terms of what is being practiced on the earth today. And I think it's also an attempt. I mean, it became illegal, and they were worried about being squashed out because Mormons, fun fact, kept getting chased out of states because people are like, stop marrying our underage daughters, you guys are fucking weird. And so that was starting to happen in Utah. and it was like, Okay, we got to get rid of this thing so that we can continue to exist. However, polygamy, very much, is still a thing when you die. So when you die, if you are in the top tier of the celestial kingdom, and for people who don't know what this is, it's the Mormon version of the afterlife. So if you get to the celestial kingdom and you're in the top tier, which means that you got all of your covenants, and you're married and you had children, and you repented enough before you died. then you if you're a man, you can have multiple wives, and all of those wives will have endless amounts of eternal children for you, and they will populate all of the worlds that you make as a god. sounds great if you're a dude. It's like, hell yeah, of course, I want to be part of this. as a woman, it's like, wait a minute, what are we talking about? That's what's taught. Is that when you're in Heaven, you will be part of a polygamous situation if you're a woman, whether you want to or not. The guys could opt out of it if they wanted to, but women cannot opt out of it.

Genevieve 35:17

I think it's so interesting, this idea of like, okay, so we're gonna stop practicing it in the here and now. but in our wildest dreams, the gift at the end of the rainbow is that's what we get to have. Like, did you see, did you feel any similar kind of way, or any parallel later on in life, when you were challenging this one penis policy, and you're like, Why do you get to date whoever you want? But I have these restrictions. Did that feel similar at all? 

Cera 35:43

Absolutely, it was actually more annoying for that reason, where it was like, neither one of us was religious. We were both raised in the Mormon church and had left it, and so I'm like, bro, do you not realize that you are, like, perpetuating the same ideas that we were raised with? And he's like, it's not the fucking same. I'm like, it is the same. It's the same thing. It really is.

Ishik 36:02

I mean, it almost sounds like it's, it's so much the same that he's not even realizing that he's, like, doing an even more core version of it, right? Because the church is, like, dressing it up with this whole like, oh, it's doctrine, it's dogma, it's whatever he's just, like, I think it's gross.

Cera 36:17

Exactly. It's coming from the same place it really is. And it's like, at the time, I was really annoyed, and I was like, this is misogyny, because it is. but now looking back, I also have a lot of empathy for him, because he was untangling the same things that I was, but unfortunately, like I was raised in it as a woman, so the impact of that was so much more acute for me than it was for him, and he did realize later that he was in the wrong for that, but he was also monogamous, and was just trying to, like, put a band aid on our not so great sex life.

Genevieve 36:52

Yeah, it can be really tough, because you're, like, questioning everything and starting over in a lot of ways. But I think there's also a gift in questioning everything, because then you actually question everything. Well, why do I have to do this then? You know, I think I encounter a lot of non monogamous people, polyamorous people, specifically, who grew up in some kind of strict, often religious upbringing, and then started questioning it, like you said, and then just kept questioning. you know, the way that you can design your own life in that way. Why are you looking at me like that? You smirk it. 

Ishik 37:25
Quote, unquote, I've encountered, no, I do. I know, of course you have. But I'm looking at you because I wonder who has such experiences like that.

Genevieve 37:34

I mean, I also talk about, you know, cult recovery and, like, kind of deprogramming. And so I think I attract a lot of people, you know, so but yeah, but I think it's a really valuable story, because even if people didn't come from such an extreme place, so many people grow up with just like passive purity culture messages passive, like cis het, this is what's normal. So just do it. And I almost feel like kind of bad for people that it never got bad enough that they were forced to question, and I want to invite them, welcome question, even if you're not like hitting rock bottom with it, you know, like you can still ask. What's the harm in asking? Why?

Cera 38:22

Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm living in the most, like one of the most conservative states. People cannot even grasp it. Like one of his work colleagues, pretty much was like, if she's forcing you to do this like you do not have to do this. He's a huge man. He's a huge man. He's like, she's not gonna force me to do much of anything. But yeah, it was like, blink twice. Like, that same dude got mad at me later. And was like, like, do you not just, you don't just, like, love this guy. He's amazing. I'm like, I really love this guy. It has absolutely nothing to do with that. And it's crazy that people conflate the two things. Like, if you are polyamorous, it means that your nesting relationship, or any of your relationships, are not enough for you, or you're non committal, or you're lazy. And it's funny, because I have never been less lazy in relationships since I've been non monogamous. You quite literally cannot be lazy if you want it to be successful.

Ishik 39:19

I can't remember which the two of you were saying this earlier, but that idea that our existence being non monogamous, challenging these ideas that people have, if there's any insecurity that they're feeling about their beliefs, about their practices in their life, it genuinely is a threat to that right, because then they have to then question themselves, and it can shake their foundations. Like, yeah,

Cera 39:40

it's like, well, if this exists, then does that mean it's okay for my partner to cheat on me or something? And oftentimes, when I dig into why someone's so uncomfortable, they have been cheated on, or they've cheated or they opened up their relationship, and it ended up going really poorly. Oftentimes, people that are, they're monogamous. But they're just living their life. They haven't had any major mishaps. They care a lot less than people who have experienced infidelity or have been unfaithful themselves.

Genevieve 40:10

It's true. I mean, I do have empathy for like we are taught that, you know, love and security is you are the only one, and so challenging that is like a core challenge. It's not even intellectual, it's like primal, it's like visceral and somatic. Of I'm unsafe. This concept I'm unsafe. If this is possible, then I'm gonna have to reframe what safety even is, like we talked about earlier. That's a lot of work, and I'm all for people declining to do that work. It's very optional, but yeah, to not take somebody else's life, as if it's a sales pitch or a decree, it's like, don't do it then. 

Cera 40:48

yeah, don't do it. And anyone who's to be clear, anyone who's like, trying to force polyamory down people's throats, like, that's really bad too. or, like, coerce polyamory, because I think some people have a bad association, because they are, like, dating some guy. Dude gets a new job. He gets a crush on his coworker. He's like, I'm polyamorous, and then ends up leaving his existing partner for this coworker, right? And so then… I see it on Reddit a lot. I like similar things to that a lot, you know, but people will have a situation like that where something is labeled as polyamory, and it really is just like cheating plus, and then they're like, well, that's polyamory, and that was horrifically upsetting for me. So polyamory must be bad. And I feel a ton of empathy for those people, because that does massively suck. 

Ishik 41:40

Yeah, 100%. And I think what's unfortunate, so often in a lot of the conversations that we have with people, we've talked about a lot of stereotypes that even people within our own community, within non monogamy have about each other, right, even though we know that they won't necessarily be true. And I think the problem is that, kind of some of the worst actors engaging in non monogamy are the ones who create these stereotypes, right? So even if 90, 95, 99% of people are acting in good faith, are practicing non monogamy in some way that's ethical, or like, yeah, like, in good faith, these assholes, the guy who, who says, I'm polyamorous now, just so that he can leave, you know, his current partner, like they give some of this stuff like a real bad rep. And I think that's part of why this podcast and everything that you are creating is so important, because we are showing people, Hey, this is actually the way that most people practicing non monogamy in a thoughtful way are. like, we're having these conversations about being true to yourself and, like all of this other stuff, and like respecting people and not trying to harm them. And it's like these are all the conversations we were always having is about these really thoughtful ways. And yet we still have this, this stereotype, the stigma that's put on us because of a few people who suck, you know, like. 

Cera 42:59

Yes, I think those people are also, like, oftentimes very entertaining for monogamous people. And so they get bolstered within the zeitgeist, so to speak. And so then people keep associating. Like, have you guys ever seen the show polyamorous married and dating? No. Polyamorous married and dating. I think it was on Showtime like a good 13 years ago or something, and it is. First off, it's like just porn, and it's a reality show, but it's just like porn, but it is such a horrible reflection of polyamory. And I think back then it was a lot of people's first introduction to polyamory, and there's like, this polycule thing going on. And for anyone else to date someone, they have to, like, sleep with everybody in the polycule. No, it was so gross. And like, this one woman's husband, she's dating this girl, she's really excited about it, and he's like, when do I get to have sex with her? And she's like, I want her to myself for a little bit. And then there's this whole meeting that's staged for them to see if they want to sleep together. And I'm like, This is the worst thing I've ever watched. 

Genevieve 44:07
I'm like, a little sick thinking about that.

Ishik 44:11

I would be remiss if I did not ask a little bit about your music career. You are a wonderful musician. I've listened to a lot of your stuff. I think you have as well Morgan, and I think it's really great. And I one of the parts that I specifically wanted to ask about, and obviously feel free to share plenty more than this. But one of the things that I found so fun was how dysregulated men would get by you, wanting to be called Daddy. I thought that was fantastic.

Cera 44:42

Oh man, hilarious! because yes, to listeners, I have a song called Daddy, and I have never experienced such backlash from men from a song. but I found that guys were not even listening to the lyrics, because the song is actually about. Like allowing your masculine partner to be able to be soft with you and to be able to be vulnerable with you. There's this one lyric that I really love. I'm like, get to the second verse. Because it's like, I won't undermine your masculinity, baby. It's just how I feel that I you know, I want to take care of you. I want to love you. I want to be soft with you. And it is funny because some guys were like, Oh my God, thank you. No one has. I've never heard this in a song before that. You know, a woman wants to take care of me in that way and like, let me let down my burdens for my job and be able to just be a person and not so much like a man. And then there were dudes that are like, but I am a man, and so you can't take that role from me. I found that so funny, because it's really just a sweet little love song. That's all it is.

Ishik 45:46

I mean, so it definitely sounds like it's music is like an area where you, like, get to explore, kind of like gender roles and maybe your sexuality and stuff like that. Do you feel like it's an area you also explore, like your relationship to monogamy and non monogamy, etc?

Cera 46:04

Absolutely. So my music, newer music that I have coming out, definitely explores non monogamy a little bit and just like unconventional relationships. And it's not very on the nose, but it's like, very coded within the songs, what I'm talking about. And it's funny, because I'm very openly non monogamous, and I have a song that I put out last year called Mad Dog, that I wrote when I was 20, when I was monogamous. And in the song, it says, I don't want to see you with some other girl. And so people listen to that and they're like, wait a minute, that's so confusing. So are you polyamorous, or are you not? And it's like, I am. But this song was a very real part of my journey as well. And so I don't listen to it and be like, how unevolved Cera. I listen to it and I just think that was a moment in time where I really was struggling with this idea of not being the only person in someone's life romantically. And I like to have that out there, and then later, when I'll be releasing music that's more on the non monogamous side, I feel like it's a journey that most people go through in their lives, and it's not linear either.

Genevieve 47:12
I'm just like having more movie and TV representation. We desperately need non monogamous songs, so I'm very grateful for your contributions.

Cera 47:22
Oh, thank you. I'm excited.

Ishik 47:24

that song that you wrote when you were 20. What point in your like, journey, like, was that in when you were in that relationship with the partner who wanted to open up? Or was that before that?

Cera 47:36

It was right before so I had been seeing someone, like, casually, like we were just hooking up and yada yada. I was not interested in him at all romantically at first, like, not even remotely. I thought he was really hot. I thought he was a good time, but I'm like, values wise, we're not even on the same planet, so not for me. Over time, my heart softened to him a little bit, and I told him I was like, You know what, I think I have some feelings for you. And he was like, oh my, I'm so happy. Like, immediately shuts down, goes hooks up with other people. He has, like, this really intense response. And I was not even really angry. I was like, I had a moment where I'm like, What in the hell I just opened up to you. I did not expect this to happen. And you're like, Let me blow this whole thing up. And so the song came from that of like, I was not expecting to not want to see you with someone else, but now I'm like, I really don't want to see you with another person. I want you to be mine. And when I was that young, I didn't always handle, like, breakups and stuff. Well, I'm a very fiery person. It took me a long time to just like, chill out and be able to be like, hey, you know, I just like, don't see this progressing, whatever. And I handled that really well, because I had this switch happen where I'm like, Yes, he did like me. Yes he did sleep with these other people. They really have nothing to do with each other. Are we compatible? No, and then that was the end of that relationship. So it wasn't, I wasn't in like a, I'm exploring non monogamy now space, but I do see that as a key moment of separating someone's interactions with someone else from how they might have felt about me.

Genevieve 49:19

And it's very true that, like, jealousy happens all the time, still, and it's just information, you know. and that desire to save mine or possessive like that doesn't mean you're bad at this or incapable of this. It's just like, Oh, I wonder why I'm feeling insecure or unstable or possessive. Makes total sense. If you just opened up, and then he just fucked off and did whatever he wanted. Like, of course you would feel like, wait, wait, wait, wait, let's put some reigns on this thing, you know. I'm curious. So we've talked a lot about, like, how it was and what happened. I'd love to learn more about what it's like now for you, especially with the dating pool being shrunk, you're in a conservative environment. Environment. What is it like for you to connect with new people? And how does that? How does that typically go for you? 

Cera 50:07

Well, I've gotten off of dating apps entirely because I've just found there are a lot of people that are, like, poly curious that very quickly I had someone ghost me last year, which was such a bummer. I was like, damn. You really could have just said, Hey, it's not for me, and it would have been fine, you know, had someone ghost me last year, you know, like, I'll date people for a little bit. I was dating this girl for a while, who became, I found out later, polyamorous for her boyfriend. And so I felt like she was keeping a professional distance from me in, like, an emotional way. And so once I learned that she just got a little too drunk and she just starts spilling, you know, I was like, Oh, okay. Well, this makes so much sense, but we probably shouldn't do this anymore, you know. So it's a lot of that. It's like, when I was on the dating apps, it was people that were interested but didn't have a ton of experience, or I ran weirdly into people that said they had other partners, but it was like people they went on two dates with that was that was kind of strange. So now I try to keep it more organic. You know, I am not on the dating apps. I live my life the way that I live my life, and I tend to just kind of like cross paths with people that are living a similar life, and I go into these interactions with considerably less expectations than I used to. I think when I first started dating other people, I was still kind of coming from, like a monogamous relationship escalator mindset, and so when things were kind of like up, down and zigzag and all around, I'm like, wait a minute. This is not going the way that it should be going. But when I allowed myself to sit back a little bit, it's like, it's not going to go the way it, quote, unquote, should be going. It's going to go the way that it goes. And so now, if I feel that kind of connection with someone, we have a conversation about it. Which is so funny, because I feel like when I was monogamous, I was never like, hey, you know, I am sensing, like, some romantic energy here. How do you feel? It's like, Yeah, me too. It's like, is this something we should approach? Like, how do you feel about me being non monogamous? Are you interested in that? Here's reading material. Decide if that's even something you want to look at. Like, those conversations, they're so funny. It is. Here's Poly-Secure. So that's funny, and it's great, and it takes the pressure off of it, and I feel like it has made me better at accepting connections the way that they are. I think I have a lot of like friendships that lean into flirtatious and romantic territory without any sort of pressure to increase it beyond what it is. End of last year, I started seeing one of my good friends who's also non monogamous, but she lives 600 miles away, and so it's also been like, okay, we're long distance and we're non monogamous, and, like, she isn't, she's like, casually dating other people, but doesn't have, like, a nesting partner. I do have a nesting partner, so it's been very interesting. She's, like, the first genuinely, like, been non monogamous, has, like, a lot of experience with that person that I've been dating. And so it's actually, like, the regular relationship problems that I'm having to work with within that connection, instead of, like, Are you sure you're okay? Like, should we even be approaching this in the first place? It's like, okay, the distance is what we're working on. You know, communication is what we're working on, as opposed to that. So that's where I'm at right now.

Genevieve 53:32
Is that the friend that you went to Ireland with, or that's someone else?

Cera 53:36

It is. We wanted to go on a trip, or I would like, come out to her for a weekend or something to get more time. Because I think since we were like, Let's try dating, we've gotten a total of like, two weeks in person, time together, and neither one of us are like, the most amazing phone call texting people. So we felt like we needed to take a trip. And I had an unused Delta flight credit, and I was like, this is the exact map to go to Dublin, Ireland, like, you want to come to Ireland with me? She's like, Sure. So we did, and it was gorgeous. It was cool.

Genevieve 54:13

So final thoughts?

Ishik 54:15

Yeah, I mean.

Genevieve 54:16 

Thank you so much. 

Ishik 54:19

It's just Yeah, I just like, the problem is, I kind of just want to keep talking. Yeah, I just want to keep chatting. And there's, like, all these other topics. Where like, Oh, I didn't get to ask about this, I want to ask about this.

Cera 54:28
Thank you so much. You guys. This was a pleasure.

Genevieve 54:31
Well, we want to invite you to plug anything you know, where can people find you online? What are some projects you're excited about right now?

Cera 54:38

Absolutely. So like aforementioned, I make audio storytelling. It's erotic and it's on the app Quinn. So some of it is very salacious, some of it is not, and it's more guided, and it's for everybody. And then I also make music. You can just find that under my name, Cera Gibson. I'm going to be putting out a lot of new stuff this year, and of course, I'm always making silly, funny little videos, and sometimes they're about polyamory.

Ishik 55:03
Very similarly. You can find Morgan on Tiktok, Instagram and YouTube @chillpolyamory. Tons of fun content, some short, some long, all great.

Genevieve 55:15

I also have a Patreon where I have bonus written and video resources with like a five year back catalog. I've been posting it every week for five years, if you want some more stuff. Along with advanced access to a lot of my content, one on one. Support. I'm around if you want, if you want to chat. So that is at chillpolyamory.com patreon.com/chillpolyamory. 

Ishik 55:36
Yeah, definitely a couple people here who are both doing a lot, and it's all fantastic.

Genevieve 55:43
Well, thank you so much. And yeah, I hope you have a great rest of your day. Bye!!

Jordan Bailey 55:56

I Could Never… is produced by me, Jordan Bailey, and was co created by Jordan Bailey, Genevieve King and Ishik Kayabas. The show was edited by Jordan Bailey and Genevieve King. We had editing help on this episode from Bea Flowers. Our music is from the Free Music Archive under a Creative Commons Attribution license. The tracks you heard were Ruffling Feathers by Jesse Spillane and City Line by Beat Mekanik. Our artwork is by Anni Jyn. If you like the show, please help us spread the word by leaving a rating and a review on Apple Podcast, it really helps other listeners find the show. Thank you, and we'll see you next week.